The astounding new AS-EQ1 SubEQ goes on sale!

[Ed Mullen]

jagman wrote:

Ed --

This device looks extremely promising... and the user reports indicate a top notch product. But, I have one concern. By looking at the plots here on this thread, it looks like this unit employs a 20Hz hi-pass filter. I read through the owners guide and I didn't see anything about a hi pass filter for the sub. I may have missed it. Many of us at the Shack are bassheads... our subs, whether SVS or not (most of have DIY subs), have solid output well below 20Hz. I for instance, have two high excursion 18" drivers in an infinite baffle (and I plan on replacing them with two high excursion 22" drivers). Even my little 18" drivers have an in room -3dB point of 8Hz. Obviously I don't want to lose the last octive.

So...

1. Is there a 20Hz hi pass filter used?
2. If so, is it adjustable?
3. If so but not adjustable, can it be made user adjustable with a firmware update?

Thanks in advance for answering these questions!

1) No (zero, zip, nada, zilch).
2) NA.
3) NA.

The AS-EQ1 has the filter resolution and processing power to equalize into the single digits if the subwoofer has a usable response down that deep.

With that said, if the subwoofer has a high pass, the AS-EQ1 will sniff it out with uncanny ability and will not apply (much) EQ below that point. Typically our subwoofers have a high pass which is a bit deeper than the system resonance frequency, so we can squeeze out another 1/5 octave extension without undue stress on the woofer. You really don't want to go much deeper than that below the corner frequency of the system, as woofer distortion/excursion rises dramatically. The AS-EQ1 knows this and follows suit accordingly.

My system currently uses dual Ultra/2 subs in sealed mode with the tune switch to Bypass (disables EQ curves but retains a 12 Hz 2nd order high pass). And the AS-EQ1 has my system flat to exactly 12 Hz, and it's ~3 dB down at 10 Hz.

[Ed Mullen]

Also, your electronics chain will eventually start to high pass itself - DVD player, AVR, and your pro-sound amp for the IB woofers will probably all start to tail off around 6-7 Hz, so chasing the response much below 10 Hz can be an exercise in frustration.

But if your IB is solid down to ~8 Hz, the AS-EQ1 will get you there, as Fatawan shows in his REW graphs (he's still seeing response down to ~6 Hz).

[jagman]

Fatawan wrote:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16507654

I don't think there is any hi pass filter--check my graphs at that link

I edited this post to take my foot out of my mouth! Awesome product!

[jagman]

Ed Mullen wrote:

1) No (zero, zip, nada, zilch).
2) NA.
3) NA.

The AS-EQ1 has the filter resolution and processing power to equalize into the single digits if the subwoofer has a usable response down that deep.

With that said, if the subwoofer has a high pass, the AS-EQ1 will sniff it out with uncanny ability and will not apply (much) EQ below that point. Typically our subwoofers have a high pass which is a bit deeper than the system resonance frequency, so we can squeeze out another 1/5 octave extension without undue stress on the woofer. You really don't want to go much deeper than that below the corner frequency of the system, as woofer distortion/excursion rises dramatically. The AS-EQ1 knows this and follows suit accordingly.

My system currently uses dual Ultra/2 subs in sealed mode with the tune switch to Bypass (disables EQ curves but retains a 12 Hz 2nd order high pass). And the AS-EQ1 has my system flat to exactly 12 Hz, and it's ~3 dB down at 10 Hz.

Awesome . Thanks Ed!!!

[Patrick Nevin]

jagman wrote:

Cool. That's awesome that you hear such good improvment .

Do you know why your "after" plot drops off so steeply below 20Hz? It is interesting as your "before" plot had solid output to approximately 15Hz. "After" plots posted by other people don't seem to lose the low end response. I wonder why there is a difference... did you add a high pass filter at 20Hz?

Regardless it's nice to see that it is working so well for so many people. A quick, relatively easy fix for a pair of subs is a wonderful addition to the market.

Jagman everything is set the way it is supposed to be set according to the ASEQ1 manual on the sub. So I don't know what is causing the drop off at 20hz. I might remeasure it tonight and see what happens.

Thanks,
Patrick

[spearmint]

spearmint wrote:

My apologies if this has been answered before, I have to admit I’ve not read this entire thread.

I’ve just ordered one of these units, but am wondering if the outputs are muted during power on/off?

I’ve got my unit now, Peter from DeepHz delivered it the other night. So I guess I can answer my own question tonight when I get it hooked up for a play.

[malikarshad]

Ed Mullen wrote:

Please disconnect your left front speaker when the subwoofer tone is running and report the results again. Thanks.

I remeasured the sub using AVIA test tones without the Left speaker. The sub still reads about 74db. The left speaker reads 82db just before I switch it off. So still there is a differential of -8db.

I did a little experiment.
I disconnected the AS-EQ1 and connected the subwoofer directly to AVR.
I ran the AVR test tones and it correctly matched the sub level with the speakers at 72db.
I ran the AVIA test tone for the sub and now it correctly measure at 82db.

I've exhausted my attempts to find anything in my AVR that would attentuate the sub level.

I have no clue now Can somebody please

[myc52002]

Ed,

My misprint. They are the PB12 Ultra/2 tuned at 20hz. I asked about the roll off only because prior to the recalibrate I did not have that roll off but in either case it is not a concern, just curious.

As for the LFE what I am referring to is there are the normal subwoofer outputs (which I connected the EQ1 to as required) and there is also a LFE output which in the menu system I can activate that output so that all recorded LFE signal (.1 channel) is directed to that output rather than mixed in with the normal subwoofer output. I disabled that output for the purpose of the calibration and with it enabled the MC12 sends a signal to that channel as well separately from the sub output. The question is whether the EQ1 cares (or needs) to have the LFE information that would normally be sent to most subwoofers to calibrate properly or does it expect that the LFE signal would be sent to the subwoofers in normal use and consider that, which in my case LFE signals are not output to the subwoofer. I do not believe that to be the case but most pre/pros do not have a separate LFE output.

I understand the response about the mic setup. Thanks

Steve

[Ed Mullen]

malikarshad wrote:

I remeasured the sub using AVIA test tones without the Left speaker. The sub still reads about 74db. The left speaker reads 82db just before I switch it off. So still there is a differential of -8db.

I did a little experiment.
I disconnected the AS-EQ1 and connected the subwoofer directly to AVR.
I ran the AVR test tones and it correctly matched the sub level with the speakers at 72db.
I ran the AVIA test tone for the sub and now it correctly measure at 82db.

I've exhausted my attempts to find anything in my AVR that would attentuate the sub level.

I have no clue now Can somebody please

In cases where a user cannot reconcile the level matching step, simply set the AS-EQ1 to 75 dB for the subwoofer and run the EQ routine and save the file to the AS-EQ1. Then level match your speakers and subwoofer by whatever other means (internal test tones, Avia, SPL meter) has successfully worked in the past.

[Ed Mullen]

myc52002 wrote:

Ed,

My misprint. They are the PB12 Ultra/2 tuned at 20hz. I asked about the roll off only because prior to the recalibrate I did not have that roll off but in either case it is not a concern, just curious.

As for the LFE what I am referring to is there are the normal subwoofer outputs (which I connected the EQ1 to as required) and there is also a LFE output which in the menu system I can activate that output so that all recorded LFE signal (.1 channel) is directed to that output rather than mixed in with the normal subwoofer output. I disabled that output for the purpose of the calibration and with it enabled the MC12 sends a signal to that channel as well separately from the sub output. The question is whether the EQ1 cares (or needs) to have the LFE information that would normally be sent to most subwoofers to calibrate properly or does it expect that the LFE signal would be sent to the subwoofers in normal use and consider that, which in my case LFE signals are not output to the subwoofer. I do not believe that to be the case but most pre/pros do not have a separate LFE output.

I understand the response about the mic setup. Thanks

Steve

The Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune, should show a solid response to ~18-19 Hz before roll-off. The slope will be 36 dB/octave (24 acoustic/12 electronic).

The AS-EQ1 does not need any information from the AVR to generate the EQ solution for the subwoofer. It pings the subwoofer directly and measures the FR and develops the solution, so it's a closed loop system.

[malikarshad]

Ed Mullen wrote:

In cases where a user cannot reconcile the level matching step, simply set the AS-EQ1 to 75 dB for the subwoofer and run the EQ routine and save the file to the AS-EQ1. Then level match your speakers and subwoofer by whatever other means (internal test tones, Avia, SPL meter) has successfully worked in the past.

Thanks Ed for your patience to help me thru this. I'm going nuts resolving this. For the past few days I have been up very late at night to figure this out.

Last night I tested the SubEQ "Level Check" with the AS-EQ1 mic using the AVR internal test tones & AVIA test tone and it reiterates the same result. I tried measuring using both Left and Right Speakers and also tried various inputs on the AVR. The speaker level and sub level was off by about -8db to -6db. But when I go to Level Matching step in Auto EQ and measure the sub level it matches correctly.

I'll try matching the sub level using internal test tones. But if I do that won't I be running the sub hotter than what AS-EQ1 suggested trim level. I want to make sure it won't screw up the EQed response

[Ed Mullen]

malikarshad wrote:

Thanks Ed for your patience to help me thru this. I'm going nuts resolving this. For the past few days I have been up very late at night to figure this out.

Last night I tested the SubEQ "Level Check" with the AS-EQ1 mic using the AVR internal test tones & AVIA test tone and it reiterates the same result. I tried measuring using both Left and Right Speakers and also tried various inputs on the AVR. The speaker level and sub level was off by about -8db to -6db. But when I go to Level Matching step in Auto EQ and measure the sub level it matches correctly.

I'll try matching the sub level using internal test tones. But if I do that won't I be running the sub hotter than what AS-EQ1 suggested trim level. I want to make sure it won't screw up the EQed response

The AS-EQ1 needs 75 dB (per its own mic and software application) to develop the EQ solution without encountering clipping/headroom problems in the digital domain. Once the EQ solution has been properly developed, the subwoofer can be run hotter or cooler than the speakers, as per the preference of the user.

The level matching section was designed to help the user obtain the proper relative calibration level between the speakers and the subwoofer. For whatever reason, it's not working well for you, so please level match the speakers and the subwoofer using whatever method has been successful for you in the past.

If you use the RS meter, take into account that it reads ~2-3 dB low on the subwoofer test tone, due to its C-weighted filter. So 73 dB on the RS meter for the subwoofer tone is actually 75-76 dB actual.

[malikarshad]

Ed Mullen wrote:

If you use the RS meter, take into account that it reads ~2-3 dB low on the subwoofer test tone, due to its C-weighted filter. So 73 dB on the RS meter for the subwoofer tone is actually 75-76 dB actual.

How about if I use the AS-EQ1 mic with SubEQ "Level Check"? Does it report the level accurately.

RS meter is sometimes difficult to check Sub level as the needle keeps on moving by few dbs.

One thing I noticed about "Level Check" on SubEQ is that I can only take measurement with MultEQ on.
Its not a big deal though I was curious to check level with MultEQ off and on but it keeps turning it on.

[Ed Mullen]

malikarshad wrote:

How about if I use the AS-EQ1 mic with SubEQ "Level Check"? Does it report the level accurately.

RS meter is sometimes difficult to check Sub level as the needle keeps on moving by few dbs.

One thing I noticed about "Level Check" on SubEQ is that I can only take measurement with MultEQ on.
Its not a big deal though I was curious to check level with MultEQ off and on but it keeps turning it on.

The AS-EQ1 is not designed to be an "SPL meter" per se. Meaning that the absolute SPL readings it generates are fairly close to absolute, but you can expect minor deviations comparing this unit to the RS meter (hardly a reference standard in its own right) or to another device like an auto-EQ AVR with its own mic.

The most important things is level matching the speaker and the subwoofer, and for some reason you are not having good luck with the AS-EQ1 compared to other references you are using (like Avia and your RS meter). Without actually being there, I have no idea where the problem lies with your level matching disparity. So if you have had success in the past with Avia and the SPL meter and feel that provides subjectively good results, then stick with that method.

You can avoid most of the needle jumpig on the RS meter by setting the speed to Slow, and also setting the dB scale to the next higher level. So on the 80 scale, 75 dB would be -5. It will fluctuate far less in the negative range of the meter than in the postive range.

[spearmint]

If anyone is interested I've posted some early impressions here

[Lordoftherings]

Ed Mullen wrote:

My system currently uses dual Ultra/2 subs in sealed mode with the tune switch to Bypass (disables EQ curves but retains a 12 Hz 2nd order high pass). And the AS-EQ1 has my system flat to exactly 12 Hz, and it's ~3 dB down at 10 Hz.

Hi Ed,

That is AWESOME!

Bob

[Patrick Nevin]

Well after moving my Epik Castle to face the room this is what type of a response I got.

Before


After


I didn't like that so I turned the sub back facing the wall. I am wondering how I can get the response lower for the Castle. I have it switched to LFE and the frequency knob all the way up to 150hz. I know the Castle is tuned to 19 hz. Any Ideas?

[Timoxx4]

Hi ED,

I am very interested in this little unit for my HT which consists of 4 12 subs that are IB and located in pairs in two separate manifolds in the floor below my mains.

I am just wondering what i might be able to expect from it considering my in room frequency response which is below here. This is before any EQ and is just the subs only, no mains.



Do you think my low end below 20hz will remain intact and not be rolled off too early ?

This is my room as it currently sits now after EQ and is as good as i can get it. I also have a house curve on it in this graph and my mains on aswell.



I guess i am just a little unsure how a flat FR will sound and i am a little scared it might sound a bit weak to my ears as i do like a lot of low end oomph.

Thanks for any enlightenment on the subject,
Tim.

[vdorta]

Ed, please help with this.

I just got my SVS AS-EQ1. I installed Sub EQ and set the AS-EQ1 up following the manual. I have a stereo system with preamplifier, electronic crossover, amplifier and two subwoofers (connected dual discrete in to dual discrete out, plus the satellites' left channel connected to Sat Center/Left). I have checked all connections and everything seems to be OK.

I have two problems:

1. When I start Sub EQ, it is OFF; I have to click MultEQ for it to go ON (I don't know if this is relevant). When I click on Start Sub EQ Calibration, the status light changes from green to red and stays red. On the next screen (Channel Configuration) it changes to a reddish yellow and stays yellow throughout. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling Audyssey Sub EQ to no avail.

2. When level matching, both subwoofers get easily matched at 75dB with the AS-EQ1 noise sweep but the satellites do not go above 47dB no matter what I adjust and there is no noise coming from them. When I tried Measurement, it says the satellites weren't detected, of course.

Thanks.

[Doug McBride]

vdorta wrote:

Ed, please help with this.

I just got my SVS AS-EQ1. I installed Sub EQ and set the AS-EQ1 up following the manual. I have a stereo system with preamplifier, electronic crossover, amplifier and two subwoofers (connected dual discrete in to dual discrete out, plus the satellites' left channel connected to Sat Center/Left). I have checked all connections and everything seems to be OK.

I have two problems:

1. The status light changes from green to red as soon as I click on Channel Configuration and stays red throughout. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling Audyssey Sub EQ to no avail.

2. When level matching, both subwoofers get easily matched at 75dB with the AS-EQ1 noise sweep but the satellites do not go above 47dB no matter what I adjust and there is no noise coming from them.

Thanks.

Hi - I'm not Ed but I'll help start the troubleshooting process if you like.

1. The light will go Red as soon as you start the config process and stay red until you permanently save your filters at least once (trying to remember as it only happens once) after taking at least three measurements. So, if you did not go that far in the calibration process, that could be one explanation.

2. Have you tried running the Sat Out from the AS-EQ1 into another input on your Pre/Pro to see if you get tone? Alternatively have you tried another audio source (cd/dvd player, etc.) on the same pre/pro input to see if you are getting any audio? This will isolate the AS-EQ1 from the pre/pro for troubleshooting purposes.

Also, curious as to why you've selected Dual Discrete for channel configuration. Do you have stereo sub outputs on your pre/pro?

Doug

[vdorta]

Doug McBride wrote:

Hi - I'm not Ed but I'll help start the troubleshooting process if you like.

1. The light will go Red as soon as you start the config process and stay red until you permanently save your filters at least once (trying to remember as it only happens once) after taking at least three measurements. So, if you did not go that far in the calibration process, that could be one explanation.

2. Have you tried running the Sat Out from the AS-EQ1 into another input on your Pre/Pro to see if you get tone? Alternatively have you tried another audio source (cd/dvd player, etc.) on the same pre/pro input to see if you are getting any audio? This will isolate the AS-EQ1 from the pre/pro for troubleshooting purposes.

Also, curious as to why you've selected Dual Discrete for channel configuration. Do you have stereo sub outputs on your pre/pro?

Doug

Doug, thanks for your quick and helpful reply.

1. I now understand the reason for the red light staying ON.

2. I tried your suggestion and connected the Sat out directly to the preamplifier and it worked! It seems the crossover has a fixed volume output.

3. My channel configuration is due to the fact that I have small stand-mounted speakers crossed over at 80Hz to a pair of stereo subwoofers, each placed close to the speakers. If I understand it well, the one IN to two OUT configuration would give me mono bass from the two subwoofers, something I don't want, but I am open to suggestions.

4. the detection results from 8 measurements give me 19 feet subwoofer distance for both. The measured distance is only 9 feet. Also, the satellite crossover shows as 120Hz. I don't have a way to manually enter that information into my preamplifier (a simple stereo pre), so I hope the AS-EQ1 knows what it's doing.

[Doug McBride]

vdorta wrote:

Doug, thanks for your quick and helpful reply.

1. I now understand the reason for the red light staying ON.

2. I tried your suggestion and connected the Sat out directly to the preamplifier and it worked! It seems the crossover has a fixed volume output.

3. My channel configuration is due to the fact that I have small stand-mounted speakers crossed over at 80Hz to a pair of stereo subwoofers, each placed close to the speakers. If I understand it well, the one IN to two OUT configuration would give me mono bass from the two subwoofers, something I don't want, but I am open to suggestions.

4. the detection results from 8 measurements give me 19 feet subwoofer distance for both. The measured distance is only 9 feet. Also, the satellite crossover shows as 120Hz. I don't have a way to manually enter that information into my preamplifier (a simple stereo pre), so I hope the AS-EQ1 knows what it's doing.

Good stuff!

As far as using Dual Discrete, your use case is exactly why that mode was implemented. I just wanted to make sure that was your intended application. For normal mono-sub use with HT and multiple subs, the One In to Two Out is a better choice.

The AS-EQ1 adds roughly 8.5ms of latency to the mix and at roughly 1ms per foot, adds about 8.5 feet to your sub distance. Sounds like you are in the ballpark.

As far as the crossover frequency goes, as long as you are comfortable with 80Hz relative to the capabilities of your speakers and the Sats/Subs blend nicely you should be fine.

Sounds like you're in business. Let us know how it sounds.

Doug

[malikarshad]

Ed Mullen wrote:

The AS-EQ1 needs 75 dB (per its own mic and software application) to develop the EQ solution without encountering clipping/headroom problems in the digital domain. Once the EQ solution has been properly developed, the subwoofer can be run hotter or cooler than the speakers, as per the preference of the user.

The level matching section was designed to help the user obtain the proper relative calibration level between the speakers and the subwoofer. For whatever reason, it's not working well for you, so please level match the speakers and the subwoofer using whatever method has been successful for you in the past.

If you use the RS meter, take into account that it reads ~2-3 dB low on the subwoofer test tone, due to its C-weighted filter. So 73 dB on the RS meter for the subwoofer tone is actually 75-76 dB actual.

Finally I've figured out the problem It's so embarassing to mention but having troubled everybody so much I feel obligated to tell. I was adding the trim level -ve instead of +ve and the difference in level was exactly the different between its -ve and +ve value.
Now everything matches perfectly and most of all the EQed sound is awesome. Even though before and after REW graphs looks alike it sounds much better. I think graph does not capture all the details that is experienced after adding AS-EQ1.
I did a demo with Transfomers BD and its simply
Thanks every body for your help and patience and especillay I owe an apology for this simple mistake.

I'm a happy camper now

Green Line after AS-EQ1
Red Line before with Audyssey calibration.

[vdorta]

Doug McBride wrote:

Good stuff!

Sounds like you're in business. Let us know how it sounds.

Doug

Magnificent! The sound has improved across the board, even in the midrange. I can't upload the before-after graphs, but the response of both subwoofers is now flat with just a narrow 4dB trough at 38Hz. I love it!

[Lordoftherings]

I've been following this thread from the very beginning, and I must say, that is one, if not the most interesting and educative thread at the Shack.

Thanks in particular to the very informative and helpful Mr. Ed Mullen.

And also to all participant members for their dedicative mutual respect.

I am learning quite a lot and it's good food for Audio enrichment.

Best regards,

Bob