The astounding new AS-EQ1 SubEQ goes on sale!

[nathometheatre]

Doug,
Thank you for the advice! Good stuff! Yes, I was referring to the cross over on my Denon, and bypassing the cross over on my PB12/plus2. So I'm going to set it back to 80hz, and set my fronts and center channel back to small. Thanks again! Kevin

[azjimmy]

Yes, very cool indeed Ed. I think I need to read up on IIR/FIR filters.

[Tong Chia]

On my AS-EQ1 the after calibration trace goes to about 200Hz.
I had initially assumed that the After trace was that of the
sub but I am now not sure.

I noticed some of the other members traces go well beyond that. What is the difference ?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post168810

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post168912

My AS-EQ1 is connected to the subwoofer Pre-Out on my Onkyo 885. Mains crossed over at 90Hz
rears at 100Hz. Sub is a Velodyne HGS18MkII.

[Timoxx4]

It wont matter going flat out to 200hz as your AVR will just apply its cross over at 90hz and chop most of that higher stuff out of the subs and send it to your other speakers instead.

[k0rww]

Hi nathometheatre,


Does the Denon 4808 have the ability to level trim while the AS-EQ1 is sending a test tone to the AVR? I have the 3808 which is similar. I have been unable to figure out how to do this.

I got very good results without doing this, but intend to redo the process with Ed Mullen's recommendation:
"In cases where a user cannot reconcile the level matching step, simply set the AS-EQ1 to 75 dB for the subwoofer and run the EQ routine and save the file to the AS-EQ1. Then level match your speakers and subwoofer by whatever other means (internal test tones, Avia, SPL meter) has successfully worked in the past."

This is essentially what I did but without the last step. I didn't save the file or I would have provided my results.

[Ed Mullen]

Tong Chia wrote:

On my AS-EQ1 the after calibration trace goes to about 200Hz.
I had initially assumed that the After trace was that of the
sub but I am now not sure.

I noticed some of the other members traces go well beyond that. What is the difference ?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post168810

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post168912

My AS-EQ1 is connected to the subwoofer Pre-Out on my Onkyo 885. Mains crossed over at 90Hz
rears at 100Hz. Sub is a Velodyne HGS18MkII.

If the before/after graphs are with the AS-EQ1 connected directly to the DD-18 subs, the after graph is simply showing an internal low pass in the DD-18. An internal (fixed, non-adjustable) low pass is very common on subwoofer amplifiers.

[Ed Mullen]

rmk wrote:

With movies, the Audyssey EQ seemed to cut much more of the impact out of bass intense passages. We used the sound canon scene from The Incredible Hulk (much to Doug’s amusement) as the tester here. Both Randy and I noticed that the sound canons had been pretty effectively neutered by Audyssey while other bass parts of that scene maintained their impact and slam. My impression was that Audyssey was doing to the LFE channel what I initially though it did to the higher frequencies when I use the Audyssey Multi EQ in my Integra SSP i.e. over treating the bass response.

As it turns out Audyssey does indeed flatten out the room response. The Audyssey graph showed a dramatic difference between before and after graphs. To validate this, we put up the Velodyne SMS-1 real time display showing the rooms FR at various listening positions using the Velo mic. This experiment also showed the large differences in graphed response that slight mic movements made across my HT seating area. For me even more interesting was how these graphs did not necessarily correlate to significant changes in the sound in moving from seat to seat. I believe that is due to a fairly good native (no EQ) bass response across my seating area aided by dual subs, room treatments and the room itself. Whatever Audyssey does right for music, seems to lessen the impact I have become acoustomecd for movies.

After running the AS-EQ1, it recommended increasing the LFE trim by 12db over the previous SMS-1 trim setting. I can't help but wonder if others who have the unit have had the similar delta with the LFE trim. While increasing the LFE channel trim helped with movies, I can't help but wonder why this is necessary. In re-setting my system later in the day, I was nearly blown out of the room by the sub channel when re-running the level settings. It required a 12db cut to get things back in sync.

[/IMG]

If you noticed a lack of slam/impact on certain scenese after the AS-EQ1 was set-up, I suspect your subs were simply running too hot previously and/or had peaks which have been flattened.

The AS-EQ1 targets a flat FR and does not have any limiters or DRC circuits. It also targets a level-matched subwoofer with the remaining speaker channels (which I suspect is the primary cause of your observations).

A level-matched and flat subwoofer system will playback as intended by the director and mixing engineers, provided the subwoofer system does not otherwise have any output/extension limitations (which is certainly the case with your dual Danley, which have virtually unlimited clean output).

After the AS-EQ1 EQ routine is run at 75 dB (required to avoid digital headroom/clipping issues), then the user is free to run the subwoofer system as hot (or cool) as he wants to satisfy his personal taste in bass (which vary greatly among enthusiasts).

Over time, I have gravitated to a preference for a flat and level matched subwoofer system, as opposed to any fixed/static "house curves" or running the sub system hot. It may be initially less impressive during demos, etc., but over time it is far less fatiguing and simply sounds "right" to my ears. Bass effects - even deep/loud/impressive ones - are rarely mixed at such a level as to completely dominate a soundtrack to the point of being distracting.

You're free to run the subs as hot/cool as you like of course, but I recommend giving flat/level-matched a try for a while before concluding it sounds castrated or nuetered; "different" is often initially perceived to be "worse" until the listener adjusts to the new sound. I'm betting if you adjust to flat/level and then go back to hot/peaky, that the subs will simply sound overblown and domineering. It's often just a matter of time/perspective that will skew our opinions accordingly.

As for the AS-EQ1 and the SMS-1 having different trim/gain settings, that is simply a function of the two devices have different sensitivity and unity gain settings on the inputs stages and different voltages on the output stages. That is why, of course, the AS-EQ1 instructions require the gain setting on the amplifier(s) be adjusted during the subwoofer test tone so that the subwoofer is playing at 75 dB before proceeding to the EQ stage.

[rmk]

Ed Mullen wrote:

If you noticed a lack of slam/impact on certain scenese after the AS-EQ1 was set-up, I suspect your subs were simply running too hot previously and/or had peaks which have been flattened.

The AS-EQ1 targets a flat FR and does not have any limiters or DRC circuits. It also targets a level-matched subwoofer with the remaining speaker channels (which I suspect is the primary cause of your observations).

A level-matched and flat subwoofer system will playback as intended by the director and mixing engineers, provided the subwoofer system does not otherwise have any output/extension limitations (which is certainly the case with your dual Danley, which have virtually unlimited clean output).

After the AS-EQ1 EQ routine is run at 75 dB (required to avoid digital headroom/clipping issues), then the user is free to run the subwoofer system as hot (or cool) as he wants to satisfy his personal taste in bass (which vary greatly among enthusiasts).

Over time, I have gravitated to a preference for a flat and level matched subwoofer system, as opposed to any fixed/static "house curves" or running the sub system hot. It may be initially less impressive during demos, etc., but over time it is far less fatiguing and simply sounds "right" to my ears. Bass effects - even deep/loud/impressive ones - are rarely mixed at such a level as to completely dominate a soundtrack to the point of being distracting.

You're free to run the subs as hot/cool as you like of course, but I recommend giving flat/level-matched a try for a while before concluding it sounds castrated or nuetered; "different" is often initially perceived to be "worse" until the listener adjusts to the new sound. I'm betting if you adjust to flat/level and then go back to hot/peaky, that the subs will simply sound overblown and domineering. It's often just a matter of time/perspective that will skew our opinions accordingly.

As for the AS-EQ1 and the SMS-1 having different trim/gain settings, that is simply a function of the two devices have different sensitivity and unity gain settings on the inputs stages and different voltages on the output stages. That is why, of course, the AS-EQ1 instructions require the gain setting on the amplifier(s) be adjusted during the subwoofer test tone so that the subwoofer is playing at 75 dB before proceeding to the EQ stage.

Thanks for the comments Ed. Of the four hours I had with the AS-EQ1 at least two of them were spent on connections and running the setup. That did not leave enough time to reach any valid opinions so my comments are more casual observations.

I did find the trim/gain delta interesting. I had to increase the gain on my sub amp 25% to get setup to run and after running the AS-EQ1 setup, I had to increase the sub level in my Integra Pre/Pro by more than 10db to hit the target 75db. That is a pretty significant sensitivity delta.

In any case, I run my subs level matched (or very close) with the other speakers and the SMS-1 takes care of the peaks so that I have +/-4db from 18Hz - 100Hz on the LFE channel at the #1 LP. What you describe as "hot/peaky", I could call dynamics. Audyssey Flat is one thing but there seemed to be LF content that was missing altogether when running Audyssey (hence nuetered). I found that was the case with Audyssey on my SSP as well but after many attempts, I finally got it to where I liked it. Maybe that is the adjustment period you mentioned.

[Sycraft]

Ya there's always an adjustment period, particularly if you are going from louder to quieter. We are biased to like louder sounds, all other things being equal. So if you are evil and want to sell someone speakers A over speakers B, you set speakers A to play 3dB louder, and people will prefer it.

Thus if you go from more bass to less bass, well it is going to sound weird. However, given some time, maybe you say "You know, that really is a better balance."

[Texxen]

Hi Doug & Ed. I have another question

When using AS-EQ1, doesn't it bypass the subwoofer processing in the AVR? I got to the end of the calibration and it recommends subwoofer trim of -0.9dB in the AVR. But I thought that any subwoofer trim change in the AVR wouldn't have any effect since AS-EQ1 is now handling the sub instead of the AVR.

I did some experiment and tried changing the sub trim to different levels in the avr and it doesn't make any difference. So where am I supposed to put in the -0.9dB trim for the sub?

There are 2 places in my AVR that I can put the trim;
1) Speaker Level - where I can change individual trim for each channel
2) LFE Level - there is only 2 trims in this menu which say "speaker" and "headphone"


Thanks

[Patrick Nevin]

Last week I ordered Auralex Atom 12 bass trap system. It comes with 4 corner fill cubes and 12 lernd's . I think it will help out my bass which will be better than what i have now which is nothing. I do have a small room which is 12 x 8 x. They arrive on Monday so will install them either Tuesday or Wednesday and eq the sub both facing the wall and facing the room and see which response comes out best.

[Ed Mullen]

Texxen wrote:

Hi Doug & Ed. I have another question

When using AS-EQ1, doesn't it bypass the subwoofer processing in the AVR? I got to the end of the calibration and it recommends subwoofer trim of -0.9dB in the AVR. But I thought that any subwoofer trim change in the AVR wouldn't have any effect since AS-EQ1 is now handling the sub instead of the AVR.

I did some experiment and tried changing the sub trim to different levels in the avr and it doesn't make any difference. So where am I supposed to put in the -0.9dB trim for the sub?

There are 2 places in my AVR that I can put the trim;
1) Speaker Level - where I can change individual trim for each channel
2) LFE Level - there is only 2 trims in this menu which say "speaker" and "headphone"


Thanks

The AS-EQ1 operates at/near unity gain and does not control the level of the subwoofer. Think of the AS-EQ1 and the subwoofer almost as one physical piece of gear. It's simply a subwoofer with a very flat in-room FR. Anything imposed upstream of the AS-EQ1/subwoofer will affect the calibration level and the FR, such as trim level changes and low pass filters. So input your subwoofer trim level change in the AVR.

The term "LFE Level" can mean a few things, and I wish some AVR manufacturers were more specific in differentiating the subwoofer channel level (which affects redirected bass and the LFE channel equally), and the LFE channel level control (which attenuates only the LFE channel, usually on a scale of 0 to -10).

What you want to change to -0.9 (usually on a scale of -10 to +10) is your subwoofer channel level. Your LFE channel attenuation control, if one exists on your AVR, should be left at 0 and not attenuated.

[Tong Chia]

Ed Mullen wrote:

If the before/after graphs are with the AS-EQ1 connected directly to the DD-18 subs, the after graph is simply showing an internal low pass in the DD-18. An internal (fixed, non-adjustable) low pass is very common on subwoofer amplifiers.

Thanks for the confirmtion. The lowpass 15Hz is a result of the subsonic filter designed
to protect the amp.

[Kal Rubinson]

Tong Chia wrote:

Thanks for the confirmtion. The lowpass 15Hz is a result of the subsonic filter designed
to protect the amp.

Low pass?

[Tong Chia]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Low pass?

Highpass

[Ed Mullen]

The low pass is internal and is not user adjustable. It typically can occur anywhere north of 150 Hz. Not all amps have them, but your Velo clearly does (provided the AS-EQ1 was connected directly to the DD-18 with nothing else in the loop).

Most of our SVS/BASH amps have a low pass starting at ~330 Hz, for example.

[Roadkill]

I prefer to lurk because I learn more by reading than making useless comments. But since I've been told that I have to actually log in and post a comment or my account will be deleted, here it is.

Great thread folks, and thanks to Ed for answering my question about the unit not having balanced in/outs about month ago.

[Dwight Angus]

I also tend to read and not ask too many questions but here goes:

After level matching each speaker at 75db. Am I limited to that volume level later on watching movies etc or am I free to adjust the avr master control at my discretion or does this effect flattening of the fr?

[Ed Mullen]

Dwight Angus wrote:

I also tend to read and not ask too many questions but here goes:

After level matching each speaker at 75db. Am I limited to that volume level later on watching movies etc or am I free to adjust the avr master control at my discretion or does this effect flattening of the fr?

The AS-EQ1 requires 75 dB before the EQ routine is run in order to avoid digital clipping/headroom issues.

We provide the level match function for the speaker channels because not all SPL measuring devices will read the same (the RS meter is hardly a reference standard for absolute SPL). So this gives you the opportunity to level match the subwoofer and speaker channels with the same device.

You are free to adjust the subwoofer calibration level afterward; it won't bother the AS-EQ1. Naturally, you may listen to your system at any master volume setting and it won't affect the AS-EQ1 FR or performance at all.

[cavchameleon]

Ed Mullen wrote:

The AS-EQ1 requires 75 dB before the EQ routine is run in order to avoid digital clipping/headroom issues.

We provide the level match function for the speaker channels because not all SPL measuring devices will read the same (the RS meter is hardly a reference standard for absolute SPL). So this gives you the opportunity to level match the subwoofer and speaker channels with the same device.

You are free to adjust the subwoofer calibration level afterward; it won't bother the AS-EQ1. Naturally, you may listen to your system at any master volume setting and it won't affect the AS-EQ1 FR or performance at all.

Ed,

Just a question on this. If one does decide to increase the sub calibration level afterward, the HP roll-off is determined by the AVR's BM and not the AS-EQ1, is that correct (I'm assuming that the AS-EQ1's filters are always in place up the the freq point it found the subs capability at).

[Dwight Angus]

Got it

Thanks Ed

[Ed Mullen]

cavchameleon wrote:

Ed,

Just a question on this. If one does decide to increase the sub calibration level afterward, the HP roll-off is determined by the AVR's BM and not the AS-EQ1, is that correct (I'm assuming that the AS-EQ1's filters are always in place up the the freq point it found the subs capability at).

The selected crossover frequency in the AVR (which applies a high pass to the speakers and a low pass to the subwoofer at the selected frequency) does not affect the subwoofer channel calibration level.

The AS-EQ1 does detect both the acoustic/electric high pass (at the low-end roll-off) and the electric low pass (at the high-end roll-off) of the subwoofer. The selected crossover frequency in the AVR does not affect the former, and cascades with the latter.

[cavchameleon]

Thanks Ed! That clarifies it for me. Thanks for such an outstanding product (can't wait to receive mine in August)!!!

[rosco968]

Wow this thread has gotten long since I found it late last week.

I wonder if there is a significant difference between the SMS-1 and the AS-eq1 besides the multiple sampling points?

I am trying to get my head around this. Thanks.

[cavchameleon]

rosco968 wrote:

Wow this thread has gotten long since I found it late last week.

I wonder if there is a significant difference between the SMS-1 and the AS-eq1 besides the multiple sampling points?

I am trying to get my head around this. Thanks.

Actually, that's only one, but not the biggest difference. The SMS-1 is an 8 band parametric eq while the AS-EQ1 has several hundred bands of eq. Also, the AS-EQ1 corrects in the time domain (the biggest affect on sound IMO as other eq's can actually destroy the time domain). And it all comes in a very easy to use 'set it and forget it' package. Ed can chime you in on the other differences.