The astounding new AS-EQ1 SubEQ goes on sale!

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 08:59 AM**

Quote:

JimP wrote:

Just to cover all bases, check your phase settings to be sure that you're not cancelling each other.

If its not that, I'd turn up the subwoofer level setting in my preamp or receiver.

Thank you for reminding me about the phase.

When I do the setup steps, I follow what the manual said; to leave the phase for both subwoofers at 0, and let the AS-EQ1 take care of the phase issue.

I was using one input-to-two output. Now, I wonder if it is because of the subwoofer placement and the phase issue. It is because I placed my 2 PC13U in left and right layout.

But, I also think of if it is the phase issue, how come I still can get a flat curve from the AS-EQ1?

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 09:09 AM**

Ed,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I will re-run the Auto EQ again this weekend. And see if it is really because of the limiters inside my Denon AVP-A1HD.

By the way, do you have any comment on my findings on level matching? I only got an actual output level of 69db to 71db if I use a sound level meter with the use of the tone signal from my AVP-A1HD. I got such readings after went through all the AS-EQ1 setup steps.

Thanks & Regards,

Rookie100fun

**JimP** · **05-12-09, 09:12 AM**

It would still be flat, just lower in volume.

Another way to check this out would be to unplug one of the subs and if your volume is now louder then your subs may have been cancelling each other. This could then be a polarity issue, but lets not go there if we don't need to.

Are you using any xlr cables and the adapters to RCA plugs?

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 09:21 AM**

Quote:

JimP wrote:

It would still be flat, just lower in volume.

Another way to check this out would be to unplug one of the subs and if your volume is now louder then your subs may have been cancelling each other. This could then be a polarity issue, but lets not go there if we don't need to.

Are you using any xlr cables and the adapters to RCA plugs?

JimP,

After reading your comment, I think when I re-run the Auto EQ, I'd better get back to the very basic; start doing a one subwoofer calibration first.

Yes, I was using a XLR-to-RCA adapter to connect the subwoofer out from my AVP-A1HD to the AS-EQ1 input.

Thanks & Regards,

Rookie100Fun

**luckybeanbean** · **05-12-09, 10:46 AM**

Quote:

JimP wrote:

Just to cover all bases, check your phase settings to be sure that you're not cancelling each other.

If its not that, I'd turn up the subwoofer level setting in my preamp or receiver.

this is my curve before, and after. doesn't look like an cancellation. Maybe I should turn up the gain of my subwoofer?
But what I don't understand is that when I use BFD, it can also get a curve almost like the second graph, but the bass output is a lot "more". maybe I did something wrong?

**markus76** · **05-12-09, 10:55 AM**

luckybeanbean ,

that's exactly what I expected to happen when I posted “although the AS-EQ1 sounds promising it has a fundamental flaw—to have the subwoofers calibrated, the mains need be part of the calibration procedure. Otherwise the whole frequency range where subs and mains cross over will be uncorrected.” (Post #136).

Now you need to calibrate the calibrated output...
The only way to do it right is to calibrate ALL low frequency sources AT ONCE. Even when highpassed, the mains and surrounds will radiate low frequencies in the crossover region.

Best, Markus

**luckybeanbean** · **05-12-09, 11:16 AM**

Quote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

The AS-EQ1 has absolutely no (zero, zip, nada, zilch) limiters or compression circuits.

If you re-ran your auto-EQ as part of the set-up, your AVR may have set some/all of your speakers to Large (full-range). Check for this in your set-up menu and manually override back to Small with an appropriate crossover frequency (usually ~1/4-1/3 octave above the rated F3 of the speaker).

There is plenty of deep bass in the speaker channels on the FOTP crash scene - so if the speakers are not bass capable and they were set to full-range by the AVR, the bass will appear to be missing/spotty on certain scenes.

Also, double check all limiter or compression circuits in the AVR - THX Ultra/2, Midnight Mode, Dynamic Range Compression, Subwoofer Peak Level, etc. are all examples of features which can kill your bass.

Also check your LFE channel attenuation control, which is not the same as your subwoofer channel level. Usually the control range is from 0 to -10 (some AVRs even inexplicably allow the LFE channel to be shut-off completely), and this control should always be set to 0.

I just unpluged my BFD and calibrated the ASEQ1 without adjusting any setting on my AVR. Let me do the calibration again tonight then. Maybe I am missing a step or something.

**luckybeanbean** · **05-12-09, 11:18 AM**

Quote:

markus76 wrote:

luckybeanbean ,

that's exactly what I expected to happen when I posted “although the AS-EQ1 sounds promising it has a fundamental flaw—to have the subwoofers calibrated, the mains need be part of the calibration procedure. Otherwise the whole frequency range where subs and mains cross over will be uncorrected.” (Post #136).

Now you need to calibrate the calibrated output...
The only way to do it right is to calibrate ALL low frequency sources AT ONCE. Even when highpassed, the mains and surrounds will radiate low frequencies in the crossover region.

Best, Markus

sorry that my english is not good enough. I really don't understand how my complaint of insufficient low bass be related to the crossover of mains. sorry.

**markus76** · **05-12-09, 11:27 AM**

luckybeanbean,

use REW’s RTA with white noise played from ALL speakers simultaneously (subs, L, C, R and surrounds), low bandwidth (200-300Hz) and a fairly long averaging time. Do that for both set ups (BFD and AS-EQ1). This will show you what the bass frequency response really is like.

Best, Markus

**JimP** · **05-12-09, 12:04 PM**

Rookie,
Do you have REW setup on your computer or otherwise have a way of generating a 80hz signal (or whatever your crossover is set for) and a way of measuring your SPL such as a radio shack SPL meter?

Beans,
What's your crossover frequency?

Rookie and Beans,
Did you adjust subwoofer distance according to what AS-EQ1 recommended?

**Ed Mullen** · **05-12-09, 12:21 PM**

Quote:

Rookie100fun wrote:

Ed,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I will re-run the Auto EQ again this weekend. And see if it is really because of the limiters inside my Denon AVP-A1HD.

By the way, do you have any comment on my findings on level matching? I only got an actual output level of 69db to 71db if I use a sound level meter with the use of the tone signal from my AVP-A1HD. I got such readings after went through all the AS-EQ1 setup steps.

Thanks & Regards,

Rookie100fun

Yes, we are seeing comments like this from other users. That is why we require the user to also calibrate the speaker channels after setting the subwoofer level. Making sure the subwoofer and speakers are all set to the same level is far more important than the absolute SPL they are set to.

There will be variances between the AS-EQ1 mic, other auto-EQ AVR mics, and the RS meter. If you have a calibrated SPL meter and want to set the subwoofer and speaker channels to a known reference SPL, you can do that after calibration with the AS-EQ1 - just make sure to keep the relative channel levels the same and increase/decrease all channels globally by the same amount.

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 12:24 PM**

Quote:

JimP wrote:

Rookie,
Do you have REW setup on your computer or otherwise have a way of generating a 80hz signal (or whatever your crossover is set for) and a way of measuring your SPL such as a radio shack SPL meter?

Beans,
What's your crossover frequency?

Rookie and Beans,
Did you adjust subwoofer distance according to what AS-EQ1 recommended?

Jim,

Yes, I got REW setup and a radio shack SPL meter. I will verify the output level by the using REW.

Also, I have adjusted the subwoofer distance inside my AVR according to what AS-EQ1 has recommended.

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 12:33 PM**

Quote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Yes, we are seeing comments like this from other users. That is why we require the user to also calibrate the speaker channels after setting the subwoofer level. Making sure the subwoofer and speakers are all set to the same level is far more important than the absolute SPL they are set to.

There will be variances between the AS-EQ1 mic, other auto-EQ AVR mics, and the RS meter. If you have a calibrated SPL meter and want to set the subwoofer and speaker channels to a known reference SPL, you can do that after calibration with the AS-EQ1 - just make sure to keep the relative channel levels the same and increase/decrease all channels globally by the same amount.

Ed,

Thank you for your reply again.

Got what you mean. I will remember to make sure the speaker channels and subwoofer are all set to same level.

Once I re-run everything this weekend, I will share my findings here again. Hope that this time I will get it right.

Best regards,

Rookie

**JimP** · **05-12-09, 12:34 PM**

Rookie,

Great!!!

Run 3 REW sweeps. One for mains and left sub, one for mains and right sub and one for mains and both subs. If your mains and both subs shows a wide dip at and around your crossover region, then there's something up with your polarity of phase.

I'm not convinced that some of the XLR cables aren't wired backwards inverting your polarity. I think that's what may have happened with one of mine. The diagnostic above should help narrow down which sub (or wiring of the sub).

Also, as Ed said above, recheck your levels with your spl meter to see that they're relatively the same.

Edit: You type faster than I do. lol

**Ed Mullen** · **05-12-09, 12:47 PM**

Quote:

markus76 wrote:

luckybeanbean,

use REW’s RTA with white noise played from ALL speakers simultaneously (subs, L, C, R and surrounds), low bandwidth (200-300Hz) and a fairly long averaging time. Do that for both set ups (BFD and AS-EQ1). This will show you what the bass frequency response really is like.

Best, Markus

While the speakers will definitely have some impact on the bass response in the room, it will be fairly minor compared to the subwoofer/room response which will be the dominant influence, provided the speakers are set to Small with a fairly high crossover (say 80-100 Hz, typical).

Also, you may want to run individual speakers (or single channels) in addition to all speakers at once and do a comparison. All speakers playing the same bass information would be the exception rather than the norm, and the additional information of seeing each speaker/channel independently could be quite useful.

Also, expect some comb filtering from pairs of speakers, depending on their relative location in the room, which is another reason you may want to consider individual speaker contributions as opposed to pairs of speakers, or all speakers at once.

Did you really mean to say "white noise" above?

**Rookie100fun** · **05-12-09, 12:48 PM**

Quote:

JimP wrote:

Rookie,

Great!!!

Run 3 REW sweeps. One for mains and left sub, one for mains and right sub and one for mains and both subs. If your mains and both subs shows a wide dip at and around your crossover region, then there's something up with your polarity of phase.

I'm not convinced that some of the XLR cables aren't wired backwards inverting your polarity. I think that's what may have happened with one of mine. The diagnostic above should help narrow down which sub (or wiring of the sub).

Also, as Ed said above, recheck your levels with your spl meter to see that they're relatively the same.

Edit: You type faster than I do. lol

Jim,

Thank you for your further advise.

I will bear in mind to check the polarity of the phase. To make thing simple, I'd better use the subwoofer RCA output this time. Once I mastered the setup, I will try to see if I can crawl out more juice by using the XLR output. =P

Best regards,

Rookie

**Ed Mullen** · **05-12-09, 12:50 PM**

Quote:

luckybeanbean wrote:

this is my curve before, and after. doesn't look like an cancellation. Maybe I should turn up the gain of my subwoofer?
But what I don't understand is that when I use BFD, it can also get a curve almost like the second graph, but the bass output is a lot "more". maybe I did something wrong?

Before checking before/after FR, be sure you are permanently saving the EQ solution to the AS-EQ1. Do not use the temporary transfer function in order to check before/after FR.

**markus76** · **05-12-09, 02:38 PM**

Quote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

Did you really mean to say "white noise" above?

Yes. Use low pass filtered white noise to make it more pleasant to your ears.

Best, Markus

**luckybeanbean** · **05-13-09, 01:22 PM**

Finally know what I did wrong

1. because I was using XLR to connect my BFD with subwoofers (or maybe the BFD has a higher output), and I now use RCA connecting my SVS EQ to subwoofer, the avamp subwoofer gain need to add at least +8db to compensate the difference.
2. Room gain was set to small, and it cut too much deep bass, causing a dip on 20hz.

Now, after recalibrate everything again, it is just amazing. During world of the war cracking ground, my hair moves which I didn't get with 1124p.

sorry to cause panic.

**Ed Mullen** · **05-13-09, 03:54 PM**

Quote:

luckybeanbean wrote:

Finally know what I did wrong

1. because I was using XLR to connect my BFD with subwoofers (or maybe the BFD has a higher output), and I now use RCA connecting my SVS EQ to subwoofer, the avamp subwoofer gain need to add at least +8db to compensate the difference.
2. Room gain was set to small, and it cut too much deep bass, causing a dip on 20hz.

Now, after recalibrate everything again, it is just amazing. During world of the war cracking ground, my hair moves which I didn't get with 1124p.

sorry to cause panic.

Glad to hear you've sorted out everything and the AS-EQ1 is performing beyond your expectations.

I would imagine you caught the problem at the level matching stage of the set-up, which is why we require it as part of the procedure. It will catch an abnormally low drive level going to the subwoofer because the sub calibration level will be much lower than the speaker calibration level when the sub/speaker test tones are played.

Even if the absolute SPL shown on the AS-EQ1 doesn't perfectly jive with other sources/references, always perform the level matching step on the subwoofer and the speaker channels. A global change to all trim levels can always be conducted after the set-up has been run, if desired.

**MartinTong** · **05-13-09, 04:55 PM**

amazing

**Lordoftherings** · **05-13-09, 11:19 PM**

Quick question: Does receivers that includes Audyssey MultEQ XT are already applying filters at 32 frequencies in the bass region and down to a low of about 5hz?

**Kal Rubinson** · **05-14-09, 10:41 AM**

Quote:

Lordoftherings wrote:

Quick question: Does receivers that includes Audyssey MultEQ XT are already applying filters at 32 frequencies in the bass region and down to a low of about 5hz?

Where do you come up with 32 frequencies?

Kal

**Ed Mullen** · **05-14-09, 11:39 AM**

The AS-EQ1 has 2X the filter resolution of the consumer version of MultEQ XT, and also has more processing power and can handle dual subs independently.

The consumer version of MultEQ XT can be perfectly adequate for certain applications, so we've been telling prospective AS-EQ1 buyers to independently verify the existing FR if possible, and then we'll determine if it's a wise investment to upgrade to the AS-EQ1. The worse the FR, the bigger the benefit from upgrading to the AS-EQ1, and if you have non-colocated duals, it's game over.

And of course there are the legacy AVRs out there with no auto-EQ, and also auto-EQ AVRs which don't EQ the subwoofer at all (like the Pio MCACC). In those cases, the AS-EQ1 is also a big benefit.

**Kal Rubinson** · **05-14-09, 12:03 PM**

Quote:

Ed Mullen wrote:

The AS-EQ1 has 2X the filter resolution of the consumer version of MultEQ XT, and also has more processing power and can handle dual subs independently.

So, that means it has the same filter resolution as the SEQ but adds facilities to handle multiple subs. No?

Kal

Advertisement