PB-12 Plus or PB-13 Ultra?

**captainbrent** · **03-17-09, 01:01 AM**

Hello Everyone!

New to the scene here and so far I have gleaned a lot of very good information but I have a question to put to the excellent minds that are about. I'm in the process of putting together a HT/music system for a new apartment that I'm in the process of renovating and I have decided that it will include a SVS sub.

The listening area is not large by any means at 1500 cu. ft. but the right side is completely open to another 2000 cu. ft. area. The only really good spot for the sub (space wise) will be on the front wall beside the left front speaker towards the corner, although there is some room to move it around somewhat in that area. There will be room treatments including base traps, the sub will be sitting on a Great Gramma and I plan on utilizing the AS-EQ1 Subwoofer EQ when it becomes available. I'm definitely a music lover so it will probably be at least 60-70% music and the rest HT.

I know that most will recommend the PB-13 Ultra and I can't really disagree, but is it REALLY necessary? Would the PB-12 Plus be sufficient with my proposed setup/usage? There isn't a lot out there on the PB-12 Plus but does anyone have experience with this sub? BTW, the apartment is very well laid out and the only place where it interfaces with the neighbours is at the front entrance and below the listening area, through bamboo floors and about 3' of solid concrete and re-bar.

Thank you in advance for you opinions and comments.

Cheers!

Brent

**thewire** · **03-17-09, 04:16 AM**

Quote:

captainbrent wrote:

The listening area is not large by any means at 1500 cu. ft. but the right side is completely open to another 2000 cu. ft. area.

Will having the smaller subwoofer allow better placement options? Second, how loud do you need the subwoofer to be? Welcome to the Shack.

**Squozen** · **03-17-09, 04:29 AM**

Given the size of the area, I'd get the PB-13 Ultra if you can afford it. That's what I'm getting.

**tonyvdb** · **03-17-09, 10:26 AM**

Its always best to go as big as possible but another choice is to get two smaller subs as this can help alot with smoothing out the rooms responce. I have the PB13Ultra and would not give it up for anything else available.

Welcome to the Shack Brent

Enjoy your stay with us.

**drdoan** · **03-17-09, 11:12 AM**

Hi Brent, welcome to the Shack. First, I would pose this question to the folks at SVSound, they will be a great help. Secondly, I would go for the largest sub you can afford. Have fun. Dennis

**captainbrent** · **03-17-09, 01:23 PM**

Hi Everyone,

Firstly, thank you for all the warm welcomes, it's appreciated!

Secondly, thank you all very much for the comments and opinions so far, also appreciated!

Next, to answer some questions and to further clarify. My taste in db's is far ranging, from soft to LOUD and I like deep bass so the sub needs to versatile. The size is a bit of an issue but the 13 could be accommodated, although placement options then come into play. Pretty much impossible to accommodate two subs at the moment. The budget is not an issue for either sub but getting great performance for less dollars is never a bad thing!

There is a lot of good information out there on the 13U but not so much on the 12+, I guess because it is relatively new. Is there anyone out there that has a 12+, or has heard one?

Also, Ed, if you happen to notice this thread your views would be more than welcome.

Again, thanks in advance for your further comments and opinions.

Cheers!

Brent

**tonyvdb** · **03-17-09, 02:06 PM**

The 12+ is actually an older sub, the PB13U is sort of the replacement and actually outperforms the 12+. There are several members who have the 12+ here at the Shack so I suspect someone will chime in soon with thoughts on it.

**captainbrent** · **03-17-09, 02:53 PM**

Quote:

tonyvdb wrote:

The 12+ is actually an older sub, the PB13U is sort of the replacement and actually outperforms the 12+. There are several members who have the 12+ here at the Shack so I suspect someone will chime in soon with thoughts on it.

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the comeback!

You are of course correct with the fact that the PB-12 Plus is not a new model and I should have been more specific in requesting opinions on the new & improved model with the 12.4 woofer. To quote the SVS website: "A tough act to follow to be sure, but the outgoing subwoofer is now replaced with a wholly new PB12-Plus".

Cheers!

Brent

**pietsch288** · **03-17-09, 07:30 PM**

I'm on the side of the 13".......repeat after me there is no replacement for displacement. The 13u would be a upgrade from the 12+, it'll play lower easier with more output.

**boarder1995** · **03-18-09, 11:51 AM**

Duals do offer the ability to smooth overall room response - I've done this with my duals, versus a single Ultra13. The overall output of the Ultra13 is greater, but I can walk around the room and find locations there's severly lacking bass. It kind of catches you by suprise as I tend to listen to music while I'm tinkering/cleaning/etc. I'll think wow, so much sub, but so little bass in this cool passage of music. Then I move over a few feet and it comes back. It's either due to a lack of room treatments, placement of the sub or a null that I know I can defeat with the second unit (previous subs in pair operation).

If you've got the room, go for the Ultra, otherwise, the + will be a great unit I'm sure. Just be aware when you hit it's max capability (in a movie likely), you'll wonder if you should have gotten the Ultra - I've been there and done that, thus I've got the Ultra now.

**captainbrent** · **03-18-09, 01:58 PM**

Quote:

pietsch288 wrote:

.......repeat after me there is no replacement for displacement.

Well said Rich...words to live by!

Quote:

boarder1995 wrote:

If you've got the room, go for the Ultra, otherwise, the + will be a great unit I'm sure. Just be aware when you hit it's max capability (in a movie likely), you'll wonder if you should have gotten the Ultra - I've been there and done that, thus I've got the Ultra now.

Thanks TK and I know what you mean...I hate having nagging thoughts of "What if"!

I'm also hoping that I can take care of most of the problems associated with a single sub by utilizing strategically placed absorption, diffusion, bass traps and by using the new sub eq that SVS is bringing out. The literature on that eq sounds very impressive and even though it hasn't hit the streets yet, I have to trust that a reputable company like SVS will not risk trying to rip anyone off by selling us a worthless POS!

Cheers!

Brent

**Squozen** · **03-18-09, 08:45 PM**

Quote:

captainbrent wrote:

Well said Rich...words to live by!

Thanks TK and I know what you mean...I hate having nagging thoughts of "What if"!

I'm also hoping that I can take care of most of the problems associated with a single sub by utilizing strategically placed absorption, diffusion, bass traps and by using the new sub eq that SVS is bringing out. The literature on that eq sounds very impressive and even though it hasn't hit the streets yet, I have to trust that a reputable company like SVS will not risk trying to rip anyone off by selling us a worthless POS!

Cheers!

Brent

No EQ can completely remedy room modes - only acoustic treatment can fix this. What EQ can do is give a nice flat response in a specific area. The EQ is not useless (and will be especially useful when configuring two subs), but neither can it defy physics.

**pietsch288** · **03-18-09, 09:08 PM**

Just remember that new SVS eq can only do so much.....running duel subs (1 front and 1 rear) would create bass where there is none and HELP flatten out the responce without any eqing naturally (you will still need to eq), which is without a doubt the best. Then use the svs eq to finish it off. I realize your post asked which sub to buy so we got a little off topic (buy the big one), but eventually you'll probably want to add another one.

**captainbrent** · **03-18-09, 11:34 PM**

Quote:

Squozen wrote:

No EQ can completely remedy room modes - only acoustic treatment can fix this. What EQ can do is give a nice flat response in a specific area. The EQ is not useless (and will be especially useful when configuring two subs), but neither can it defy physics.

Quote:

pietsch288 wrote:

Just remember that new SVS eq can only do so much.....running duel subs (1 front and 1 rear) would create bass where there is none and HELP flatten out the responce without any eqing naturally (you will still need to eq), which is without a doubt the best. Then use the svs eq to finish it off. I realize your post asked which sub to buy so we got a little off topic (buy the big one), but eventually you'll probably want to add another one.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the advice! I certainly do understand the limitations of eq'ing and will definitely be placing a high priority on room treatments and then utilize the eq for the final touches...within it's limitations of course.

Cheers!

Brent

**captainbrent** · **03-18-09, 11:41 PM**

Thank you all for your comments, opinions and advice!

As expected, the consensous is for the PB-13 Ultra so alright already...I'll get "the big one"!

Cheers!

Brent

**Magyar** · **03-30-09, 07:58 PM**

Quote:

Squozen wrote:

No EQ can completely remedy room modes - only acoustic treatment can fix this. What EQ can do is give a nice flat response in a specific area. The EQ is not useless (and will be especially useful when configuring two subs), but neither can it defy physics.

Acoustic treatment won't fix suck outs and nulls either, only repositioning either the sub or the listening area will do that. There isn't a single approach that fix everything, one should use all that is available to achive the desired outcome.

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