PB12-NSD vs PB12Plus/2

**Malice** · **01-11-07, 05:05 AM**

Hi,

I was thinking about an upgrade from my PB12-ISD (with an NSD driver) and had seen a good price on a Plus/2 in the UK.

Having read on the SVS site a little more about the latest models, I couldn't help but draw comparisons between the latest PB12-NSD and the Plus/2 units.

The PB12-NSD has this response curve:

Whereas the Plus/2 has this:

For the same 90db output, the NSD appears to have a better extension to 20Hz and below than the Plus/2 has in 20Hz mode.

If one is not pushing the SPL levels all that much in a 3000 cuft room, what advantages does the Plus/2 have over the NSD?

**Geoff Gunnell** · **01-11-07, 07:52 PM**

Headroom, headroom, headroom! The Plus/2 will play much louder than any single NSD enclosure, and sound better doing it. In a 3000 cubic foot room the Plus/2 is an excellent match -- grab it!

Those SVS graphs are just to give you a general idea of the shape of the frequency response curve -- there used to be a note below each graph saying this.

**Tom Vodhanel** · **01-16-07, 11:07 AM**

Hi Malice,

The PB12nsd is tuned a bit under 20hz...so it will dig a little deeper than the Plus/2 in 20hz mode. The plus/2 will have a big advantage in output capabilities of course. But if you never/rarely push the PB12nsd very hard...the benefits of that could be debatable..

Does the room have any large openings to other areas of the home? Also, have you calibrated the system with a meter? If so, how close to reference level do you push action oriented DVDs (with your loudest listening levels)?

Tom V.
SVS

**Malice** · **01-16-07, 02:14 PM**

Hi Tom,

Good to hear from you after such a busy period in Vegas!

The room is totally closed. I calibrated the "old" ISD driver and BFD'd it. Here's the result(s). I use the flatest curve (filter #1) 99% of the time.

This was calibrated to my Denon's internal test tones which are 75db not 85db. Sub's amp is about 10 o'clock. As I get some grief from she who must be obeyed, I occasionally will listen at -2db, but mostly -6 to -10db.

Perhaps a Plus/2 with 12.3 drivers may be a bit of an overkill for my needs?

Bob

EDIT However, someone did say once upon a time that "640k should be enough for anybody."! Perhaps you can never have too much sub capacity!

**Tom Vodhanel** · **01-16-07, 06:27 PM**

Hi Malice,

If you are pushing things that close to reference level occasionally (2-6dB below reference)...the Plus/2 will offer a more natural, dynamic presentation on the "bassiest" DVDs..

With all speakers set to small, those master volume levels can require the subwoofer to produce peaks of 115-121dB. In your room size, that will be pushing the PB12nsd right to its limits occasionally. I don't know if I would expect a BIG "in your face" type of improvement in the overall bass performance...but at your loudest listening levels...with the bassiest DVDs...it will be audible imo.

Tom V.
SVS

**Malice** · **01-17-07, 03:13 AM**

Quote:

Tom Vodhanel wrote:

Hi Malice,

The PB12nsd is tuned a bit under 20hz...so it will dig a little deeper than the Plus/2 in 20hz mode. The plus/2 will have a big advantage in output capabilities of course. But if you never/rarely push the PB12nsd very hard...the benefits of that could be debatable..

Does the room have any large openings to other areas of the home? Also, have you calibrated the system with a meter? If so, how close to reference level do you push action oriented DVDs (with your loudest listening levels)?

Tom V.
SVS

Thanks for your opinion re the near-ref level outputs. As you can see from my graph my room produces a significant amount of room gain below 30Hz. So I bet the Plus/2 in 16Hz mode would work really well for me.

Oh decisions, decisions!

Bob

EDIT Perhaps just a PB12+ so I can go low than what I can do at the moment!

**Tom Vodhanel** · **01-17-07, 10:00 AM**

I wouldn't upgrade from the PB12nsd to the PB12plus. The PB12plus will extend a LITTLE lower, and have the ability to play a LITTLE louder(in 16hz)...but the differences are hardly what I would call significant.

Hmmm, now that I'm re-reading the thread...do you have the older PB12isd (down firing with base plate) or the newer PB12nsd?

Tom V.
SVS

**Malice** · **01-17-07, 10:25 AM**

Correct: "OLD" ISD design, down firing with the newer NSD driver. Perhaps my opening post comparing the graphs of the newer front firing PB12-NSD and the Pus/2 was a bit of a red herring for my subsequent questions!

**Tom Vodhanel** · **01-17-07, 08:20 PM**

Yes, that is a little different..

The PB12isd is a solid performer no doubt---but the new PB12nsd does have the performance advantage(particularly <25hz). The PB12plus would be a noticable improvement over the PB12isd...but I still think you'll be putting yourself in a position to want to upgrade again before long. Moving up to the Plus/2...or waiting for the new PB13Ultra would take care of that risk..

Tom V.
SVS

**Malice** · **01-18-07, 03:57 AM**

PB13 Ultra?

**stevefish69** · **01-18-07, 02:36 PM**

Quote:

Malice wrote:

PB13 Ultra?

Me too. Will the PC Ultra tubes be available over here

Malace, why not pop down to AV Sales and have a listen at the "New" PB12nsd compared to the Plus2 or wait until the Ultra is about and have a listen to all 3

When i got a demo of the two of them, it was like night and day during FOTP crash scene

**Malice** · **01-18-07, 02:48 PM**

As I live near Blackpool, "popping" down to AV-Sales is not a simple matter!

I'd love to audition the Plus/2 but there are two chances of that happening:
(1) Fat
(2) Slim

When you say like night and day, in what respect compared to what?

I am sorely tempted by the last of the specials on the Plus/2, but SWMBO hates, yes hates, the sub I have. So to get a "better" one could be grounds for divorce!

Bob

**stevefish69** · **01-18-07, 04:02 PM**

Quote:

Malice wrote:

When you say like night and day, in what respect compared to what?
Bob

The Plus 2 just seemed to have more presence and authority in the room compared to the NSD. It just felt a more refined sound which outshone my 20-39PC+ which i am used to.

It is HUGE compared to the NDS though.

I could always pop my tube in the car next time we are up at the pleasure beach, but i don't think ya missus would like my dustbin in your living room for a trial / demo

**Malice** · **01-18-07, 07:20 PM**

I've never heard a 20-39PC+ but so many have raved about in blighty land that the Plus/2 must be a very special sub. How big was the demo room?

**stevefish69** · **01-19-07, 10:03 AM**

Quote:

Malice wrote:

How big was the demo room?

IIRC it was probably around 20ft by 15ft. I might be wrong though.

**Malice** · **01-19-07, 10:10 AM**

Mmmm. about my size. I'm about 21 x 17.

**Malice** · **01-19-07, 01:31 PM**

Quote:

stevefish69 wrote:

The Plus 2 .........

It is HUGE compared to the NSD though.

To see relative size I thought I'd draw to scale my existing PB12-ISD size to the new front firing PB12-NSD and the PB12-Plus/2.

**stevefish69** · **01-19-07, 04:00 PM**

Looks like you are trying to talk yourself into an upgrade there

Why not buy one for the missus, stick a nice cloth over it with some flowers on, and she'll never know the difference

**Malice** · **01-20-07, 03:49 AM**

Quote:

stevefish69 wrote:

Why not buy one for the missus, stick a nice cloth over it with some flowers on, and she'll never know the difference

That's what my son was telling me this morning as I was taking him to rugby!

**lienly** · **02-17-07, 10:15 PM**

nice job, Malice.
if can add PB10-NSD, it's even better.

Quote:

Malice wrote:

To see relative size I thought I'd draw to scale my existing PB12-ISD size to the new front firing PB12-NSD and the PB12-Plus/2.

**Malice** · **02-18-07, 05:30 AM**

Quote:

lienly wrote:

nice job, Malice.
if can add PB10-NSD, it's even better.

Done!

**lienly** · **02-23-07, 05:12 PM**

tks, Malice.
what's that little circle? I guess big one is 12+ driver on SB12+.

Quote:

Malice wrote:

Done!

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