SVS PB12Plus/2 vs. New PC-Ultra

**kioko12** · **10-23-07, 05:45 PM**

My apologies for the long post...this is my first time on this forum. (I've found it to be a really great resource so far)

I've been reading quite a few posts/threads regarding the SVS PB12-Plus/2 performance, and from what I gather, this sub is capable of producing prodigious amounts of bass for home theater and music listening. With that being said, can anyone explain the difference in bass output and quantity between the Plus/2 and the new PC ultra (Cylinder model)? Personally, I want to have the "bad boy" sub that can rattle stuff off shelves two rooms away and be confused with real thunder. Ideally, I want to come as close to car-audio bass output levels as possible, given a sub $2000 budget. Naturally, I run my sub's hot

The F113, while gorgeous in design and quite the performer, is simply too expensive in my opinion, especially when there are subs out there like the Plus/2 that offer a tremendous value. Granted, this probably applies more for people who don't have space constraints.

I've demoed the F113 several times, and in all cases, had the gain set to max. I wasn't that impressed. Perhaps it was the calibration, but I was expecting output similar to the JL W7's for car audio (granted they have the advantage of car cabin gain). For some reason, the F113 just didn't have the "Oh wow" effect I was looking for.

Just a side anecdote, the first time I experienced true bass was listening to a 10" 300W REL (one of the larger models). I had brought along a bass-CD made for car audio with some really deep 15-20 HZ stuff. Now, granted my prior sub reference was a 150W 8" sealed sub (still capable of pretty decent bass in a small room), the REL blew me away. I was NOT expecting such deep bass from a unit like that. I can only imagine what the Plus/2 can produce...

Lastly, does anyone know how the driver in the SVS PB13-Ultra compares to those in the Plus/2? (magnet weight, excursion, Fs, etc)

**Aetherhole** · **10-23-07, 07:36 PM**

kioko, in all honesty, if you didn't like the Fathom, you likely will not like the Ultra. They are very similar in every aspect. And you are looking for "Car audio" sound, and by the sounds of it, you're looking for pure SPL. The Fathom is a VERY accurate sub. The Ultra is a VERY accurate sub. That being said, they may not impress one who is looking for pure SPL. If that's the case, I wouldn't necessarily even suggest the PB12Plus/2, either. It's a pretty accurate sub as well and the output is similar to that of a single Ultra 13.

Neither the Ultra or the F113 will give you the "Car audio" Boom.

You may want to go with one of lower end drivers, like the ISD driver and put more of those in your room simply to get the SPL you might be looking for. You will be able to get more drivers for your money that way.

**Sonnie** · **10-23-07, 08:36 PM**

Hi kioko and welcome to the Shack!

Jon is right... it's difficult to get car audio levels in home theater. My room is ~1800 cubic feet and sealed off tremendously well. I have a pair of PB12-Plus/2's and a dual RL-p15 LLT and about the best I've done is 128db.

Check this out... he only achieved 133db.

YouTube - Bass Pig's Lair - System Subsonic Test...

If you get a small enough room and enough subs... you can get close.

**kioko12** · **10-23-07, 09:02 PM**

Thanks!

Hmm...perhaps I misstated my goals. I wouldn't exactly say that I'm looking for "just SPL." I do want clean sound and minimal distortion (though I'm not going to be too fastidious and require a servo sub). Clearly, if the Bass Pig setup was "only" able to get 133 db, then that should be my new benchmark for in-home bass pressurization. Besides, I don't want to damage my house

As for my experiences with the F113, it was in a large-ish demo room (about 25 X 25) at a high-end audio store. The salesman told me that they had calibrated their system to be pretty much as flat as possible, since that's what most of their customers wanted. I'll admit that I'm not exactly your typical home theater/music audiophile, since I prefer biasing towards the low end, even if it's not audiophile neutral sound. I personally think that's too boring and unexciting, though I can see how some people want to have their music reproduced exactly as intended by the studio.

Secondly, most of this store's customers listen to mostly classical and "wimpy" soft rock (no offense to those who like this music). I, on the other hand, push more jazz (I'm a musician on the side), R&B, and hip-hop through my speakers, so naturally bass is pretty important.

One last thing...the other day, I was visiting a neighbor's house and as I was walking into the foyer, I was pretty impressed with the deep bass emanating from his living room...not bone crushing bass, but just enough to make you think, "Very nice." I was shocked when I found out that this delicious bass was coming from a "cheap" Panasonic 5.1 HTIB! The system must have only cost him $600 max. My ears were definitely tricked on this system. For one, it had more deep bass than my smaller system (partially due to the bass reflex nature of his sub, vs. my acoustic suspension system). Still, it sounded good, and at the end of the day, if it puts a smile on your face, then that's what counts.

Now, this may sound crazy, but his system had more bass than the one using the F113. Again, I'd blame the calibration of the Fathom for it's less than stellar performance, but I did crank up the gain to max, so I still don't know what the deal was. Perhaps standing waves had something to do with it... I'd really like to hear the direct comparison between the Plus/2 and the F113. I think the difference between the sealed vs. ported designs will be quite noticeable. So far, I prefer the sound of a good ported design over a sealed simply because of the extra headroom.

**Sonnie** · **10-23-07, 09:19 PM**

Yeah... if you like bass then a system tuned to a flat frequency response will sound... well... flat. Almost dull to me. Most of us around here prefer a house curve which gives us more bass.

Another thing is from where in the room did they optimize for a flat response? Were you sitting in that optimized location? How do they even know that they got it flat? Did they measure the frequency response with a program like REW?

Even if you crank up the gain... if there is no room gain, if there are standing waves, if the system is not optimized correctly, and/or if you are not sitting/listening from the optimized location... all these can effect what you hear.

**mojomike** · **10-23-07, 09:26 PM**

Often, the sonic characteristics of a particular room can determine which sounds better in that room, a sealed or ported sub. Small to mid sized rooms that are sealed off will tend to augment the low response and will offset the typical rolloff of a sealed sub. On the other hand, larger and/or open rooms may be better served by a larger, deep-tuned ported sub which does not have any significant rolloff until you get below it's tuning point.

**kioko12** · **10-23-07, 09:36 PM**

Sonnie-

I wasn't sitting. I chose not to sit in their "optimized spot" (which happened to be near the back of the room) and walked around, corner to corner, front to middle to back. Clearly, there was more output in the corners and by the walls. The F113 has it's own calibration microphone that they used. I don't think they actually measured the FR. In fact, most of the sales reps seemed intimidated by the F113. I found this odd, since in the other room they were selling $70K Wilsons.

Ideally, I would want a sub that would produce good bass wherever I was in the room. I like to entertain my friends and family a lot in my house, so people generally aren't sitting in one area for too long. In my neighbors house, the bass seemed to be everywhere. I'm not sure how he did it, but it sounded good. The room had cathedral ceilings and was about 20 X 16. He said that the sub used a 6.5" driver in a ported box and was rated at "250 watts". Either his setup or room acoustics must be PERFECT or I'm losing my hearing from all of this bass. I'm still blown away from the bass output and quality from his system. I can't even begin to fathom (sorry, couldn't help it

) how the F113 properly calibrated, or a Plus/2, would sound in the same space!

**Aetherhole** · **10-23-07, 09:51 PM**

For clarification, Sealed vs Port has kind of been nullified, especially when it comes to subs like the Ultra 13. The Ultra 13 being a ported sub performs as good/if not better than MANY sealed subs.

Anyway, you do have a trial period if you test out the Plus/2 for yourself! Clean output is absolutely what the Ultra/Fathom and even the Plus drivers are about.

I am never really impressed by "Demos" or "Demo rooms" that I go into. They are never really good to judge how the speaker/sub sounds. The best bet is to take one home and demo/compare it there.

I agree that the calibration of the F113 is what made you less than impressed, but I also think that calibrating it to YOUR preference is key, especially since you don't consider a flat response, ideal for your situation.

**Sonnie** · **10-23-07, 09:53 PM**

Generally if you optimize for several locations... all locations sacrifice a little, some more than others. But it is still difficult to optimize for anywhere in the room. It would probably take several precisely placed subs to accomplish it.

I installed an inexpensive Infinity system with one of those smaller subs in a big house once. Similar setup... cathedral ceilings... big open room. It sounded rather good, but it was 30Hz and up. It would have probably surprised a lot of people because it wasn't very accurate. Quite a few people like inaccurate bass. When they listen to accurate bass, they think something is missing until they get use to listening to it. I'm pretty sure if you measured the response on that 6.5 subwoofer system, you'd find the response rolls off very rapidly below 30Hz. You are "hearing", but missing a lot of the "feel" part of it. I imagine a properly calibrated quality sub would be very different in that same room.

**robbroy** · **10-25-07, 08:46 AM**

kioki12,

Another option to think about is dual PB12-Plus models. The overstock price for two of them is $1,499 right now. That will come in below your stated budget, will give you the flexibility of stacking them for greatest SPL, or moving them around for maximum sound quality, and will have a lower native tuning point than the PB12-Plus/2. As to whether the overall output will exceed the PC-Ultra or the PB12-Plus/2, ask the guys at SVS and they'll give you an honest answer.

-Robb

**kioko12** · **10-25-07, 09:08 AM**

Yeah, that is another option. I kind of like the idea of just having one monster sub, though. Does anyone have any first-hand advice on the differences between one Plus/2 and two PB12-Plus's?

**mojomike** · **10-25-07, 10:06 AM**

I have no first hand experience in the sense of having owned those subs, but I've a good grasp on the differences between the two.

Generally, the advantage will always fall toward the pair of singles due to the added flexibility in placement and the naturally deeper tuning of the singles. Thay can play deeper and you have the option of stacking them, placing them side-by-side, or separting them to even out the room response.

**Ron Temple** · **10-25-07, 12:16 PM**

A pair of Pluses will pressurize the room more than the PB13U and as mm says will even out the FR. However, going north of 120 dbs in most rooms is stretching their capability. They won't have the articulation of the Ultra, which is pretty astounding, but they definitely put you in the moment.

I know this is a SVS forum and I'm a big supporter, but if you need more out of a single box then the Plus/2, then perhaps you should be looking at companies that begin with the letter E.

**kioko12** · **10-25-07, 01:43 PM**

Yeah, I know what you mean. I looked at the A9-700, but it's just too big...almost like having my refrigerator on its side. The bass must be fantastic, though.

**Blaser** · **10-26-07, 08:21 AM**

If I were you and I would try to raise the budget a bit and go for for 2 new Ultra 13s. These are fantastic subs and they would be able to deliver some strong SPL as well. Otherwise I would chose the DIY alternative with longthrow 18"s and as much power as possible.

**Chrisbee** · **10-27-07, 01:49 AM**

kioko

I think Sonnie nailed it in his last post.

You are accustomed to high distortion bass.

That's the price of small boxes and small drivers or group PA gear.

It is a large adjustment to listen to high quality bass with real extension.

You are so used to listening to false harmonics instead of the true fundamentals that you miss them.

The better the subwoofer the more like reality it becomes.

Reality involves moving massive amounts of air very gently.

This can be achieved with one or more very long throw drivers (Fathom and Ultra 13) or lots of large drivers moving only a little way. (like an IB)

If you want more you can always stack up a lot of lot of Ultras, Fathoms or Plus2s.

You don't like huge boxes? Perhaps you ought to look at a very large ported 15" or 18" Sonosub? Just like the PC Ultra13 but carried to such extremes that SVS could never get away with it commercially.

If you don't like the height of a big tube you can lay it down behind the furniture. Standing up they have the majesty of a Greek pillar. Lying down they look like a fallen pillar at a Greek ruin.

Done right $2k should buy you some serious raw bass power to satisfy your wildest dB cravings.

**allredp** · **10-27-07, 04:58 PM**

Kioko,

I own a PB12+/2 and love it. I upgraded from an M&K sealed 12" and I've worked over the BFD with REW (4 filters).

Forgive the long post, but maybe something below will be helpful.

I, too, was at a brother's house last weekend and astounded at his $500 Sam's Club 5.1 HTIB bass (it was corner-loaded). Funny how I worried slightly the same way as you about bang-to-$ ratios!

Yet, upon returning home and cranking mine the smile returned and I appreciated the lack of "one-note" boom--don't get me wrong, it booms, it just does all sorts of other things also.

There's a great scene in The Island (chapter 12 I believe) where there are all sorts of different frequencies at play. Some are upper-chest gun shots and others are infrasonic shudders. It's a terrific sub demo as many lesser subs can't do the full spectrum of LFE. You should try it--I've never found a better all around demo scene for every kind of LFE...

I had the cool opportunity to visit Ed Mullin's home (of SVS fame) this summer and heard his dual Ultra 12+/2s (in a near-field setup). He has a pretty flat system setup, and we used all three different tuning points on the Flight of the Phoenix plane crash. Holy Cow--it was unreal.

I've heard a lot of things in my days (used to be a mobile dj), but that takes the cake! My pants and shirt sleeves were flapping--but the volume audibly wasn't loud at all. It was eerie and I loved it.

The most impressive thing was that I went home and tried my own single +/2 and it couldn't do it at all--oh, it could pull all the booms, etc. of the later crash, but the wind-flapping stuff prior to the crash, etc. were not there.

Ed told me that the dual subs allow for basically double the headroom, so they don't over-extend, but can go lower with less effort. I think the distortion must be greatly reduced also. I'm telling you, the infrasonics on Ed's system were so cool. In fairness to my +/2 it is in about a double-sized room as Ed's and there's just the one box! Still, I was so impressed!!! It's got me thinking about a dual sub setup big time.

Now, I love my +/2, but if I could get another one (or a PB13) to compliment it, I'd be loving life for sure.

I'll write back in a couple days after I've been able to a/b my +/2 against the F113--I'm putting the JL into a buddy's house and will be hauling my SVS over to his room to see what they both sound like.

Seems to me you should ask yourself some questions about what type of sounds you like. If you like the subs hot, ask yourself if you care whether there's a lot of accuracy or if you just want to get 'hammered'? Car audio is infamous for its distortion--it can be disconcerting to hear "accurate" bass coming from that experience.

Would it be possible to take a different sub over to the showroom where you heard the JL and audition the room? Or would they be willing to throw some of their other subs into that same room/position to a/b the JL? That kind of demo is likely to help you out...

I know the SVS guys are truly helpful as per advice--just email or call them and you'll get steered right.

Enjoy the search...

Phil

**kioko12** · **10-27-07, 09:57 PM**

Phil,

I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on how your Plus/2 compares to the F113.

***

To round out my thoughts on bass, I, like most of the folks on this forum, want the best quality bass that I can get. However, I also want to have the headroom to produce absurd levels of bass on demand, should I be in the mood. I was in my brother's home theater last year and he did a demo of 15 Hz sine waves. The bass knocked two picture frames off the wall and rattled the chandelier so loudly his wife had to come downstairs to tell him to turn it down. It also set off his car alarm parked outside in the driveway. Of course, having 4 18" subwoofers hooked up to a 6 kilowatt power source helps. When you go into my music room and see a movie, I want my guests to fear the bass. Unfortunately, I don't have the budget for that kind of setup. Is this comparable to the Plus/2? Hardly. Nevertheless , that is my reference.

**Warpdrv** · **10-29-07, 05:52 PM**

Im thinking that maybe you should steer yourself toward the DIY market....

Maybe build a couple of boxes with Subduction SDX15 in each 320L tuned to 14hz with as much power as you can throw to them... I would imagine they would be able to pressurize your room to those extremes your looking for... Im sure you could easily do that in your price bracket... rated here to be great performing drivers.

I know this is the SVS forum, and I own a Plus/2 and a Plus in the same room, they are pretty loud... and integrate very well with each other...

**khellandros66** · **10-29-07, 08:58 PM**

I may be wrong but I believe the dB level off a LFE system is limited by the room itself, once pressurization is exhausted you can't get more. Only two things out there push it to this, an Infinite Baffle or the Rotary Thigpen. That system is sick sonnie but he is limited by the subs enclosure's even if he doubled the amount of the speakers he'd only be 6dB more then he is now.

If the boys from the DIY thread or SVS have any insight as to what I said above I know (I and) we'd all appreciate it.

~Bobby

**Otto** · **10-30-07, 04:52 AM**

Go IB.

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