PB13 delivered today - but not getting the results...

[jvanhambelgium]

Hi,

I was very happy to receive my PB13 today. It was shipped in excellent condition and the glossy black finish is superb! Excellent craftmanship !

I was really expecting the woooooooooooooooooow effect after I placed the unit in the corner of the room.
This room is quite large

lengte : 12.2 meters
width : 4.5 meters (with 1/3 of the lenght even having a width of 6meters)
height : 2,5 meters

To make things worse, there is "hole" in the ceiling towards the 1e floor with an addition 4x4x2.3meters area.(our staircase starts in the living-room)

If you start adding all together this is more then 7000 cubic feet !


- I've used default 20Hz tuning
- disabled all X-over on the PB
- set room-compensation to LARGE according to manual
- gain is about half-way the dial.

The PB13, in its current setup, surely "helps" expand the base-experience, but I do get a sense of "boominess" when I start playing louder...so I'm expecting room-issues ??

I have no SPL-meter yet, since I was hoping the Audessey in my Onkyo 875 would "fix" things.
I would then "adjust" levels by listinging certain movies/audio tracks.


Any hints from the pro's ? Is the room just to big to get the "punch" effect ?
What about my sense of "boominess" with the sub in corner ? I can test this weekend by moving the sub for about 2.4meters away from the corner...

Need your input guys!
Thanks!

[Ed Mullen]

jvanhambelgium wrote:

Hi,

I was very happy to receive my PB13 today. It was shipped in excellent condition and the glossy black finish is superb! Excellent craftmanship !

I was really expecting the woooooooooooooooooow effect after I placed the unit in the corner of the room.
This room is quite large

lengte : 12.2 meters
width : 4.5 meters (with 1/3 of the lenght even having a width of 6meters)
height : 2,5 meters

To make things worse, there is "hole" in the ceiling towards the 1e floor with an addition 4x4x2.3meters area.(our staircase starts in the living-room)

If you start adding all together this is more then 7000 cubic feet !


- I've used default 20Hz tuning
- disabled all X-over on the PB
- set room-compensation to LARGE according to manual
- gain is about half-way the dial.

The PB13, in its current setup, surely "helps" expand the base-experience, but I do get a sense of "boominess" when I start playing louder...so I'm expecting room-issues ??

I have no SPL-meter yet, since I was hoping the Audessey in my Onkyo 875 would "fix" things.
I would then "adjust" levels by listinging certain movies/audio tracks.


Any hints from the pro's ? Is the room just to big to get the "punch" effect ?
What about my sense of "boominess" with the sub in corner ? I can test this weekend by moving the sub for about 2.4meters away from the corner...

Need your input guys!
Thanks!

Set the room gain comp to Bypass.

Set the phase to 0 degrees.

Set the PEQ controls to full CCW (bypassed)

Use the Onkyo to set channel levels and speaker/subwoofer distances and let Audy do the EQ. Then go back and make sure none of the speakers are set to Large or have a too-low XO frequency. Make sure all speakers are set to Small with an 80 Hz XO, even if they are fairly large.

Sometimes the AVR sets the speakers to Large (when they really aren't full range) and this obviously kills the bass response.

Let me know how it goes.......

[Warpdrv]

Yes, even in that room, you should be getting a good amount of slam.

My room is larger then that and I got tons of slam from my Plus/2, but I just added a second cause I'm nuts... Like Ed suggested, recheck all your settings, something is amiss here..

[Sonnie]

That Audyssey may very well be cutting out some of your bass... it did this with me on a Denon receiver. You might also try turning it off and see if it was noticeably cutting any bass.

[jvanhambelgium]

I'll try some of the tips tomorrow and let you know...
However, my DefTech Promonitor 1000 5.0 set actually worked well with Audessey engaged.
And there was already lots of bass with good quality, they only had the nasty habit of jumping around if you put no weights on them and if playing LOUD ;-)

I really hope I can let the sub remain in the corner. I know that "corner-loading" gives some extra, but can it actually influence the sound in such large room in a negative way ? THAT would be depending on the actual room-modes no ? and those are depending on sizes/ratios of the room


QUESTION : At what level (gain) do you - PB13 owners - have their box set ? Is 4 or 5 out of 8 overkill ?


Thanks!

[OvalNut]

You really need to buy at SPL meter and use that to calibrate the subwoofer level as a starting point.

Tim

[Ed Mullen]

jvanhambelgium wrote:

I'll try some of the tips tomorrow and let you know...
However, my DefTech Promonitor 1000 5.0 set actually worked well with Audessey engaged.
And there was already lots of bass with good quality, they only had the nasty habit of jumping around if you put no weights on them and if playing LOUD ;-)

I really hope I can let the sub remain in the corner. I know that "corner-loading" gives some extra, but can it actually influence the sound in such large room in a negative way ? THAT would be depending on the actual room-modes no ? and those are depending on sizes/ratios of the room


QUESTION : At what level (gain) do you - PB13 owners - have their box set ? Is 4 or 5 out of 8 overkill ?


Thanks!

The calibration level of the subwoofer is a function of the subwoofer channel level setting in the AVR and the gain setting on the SVS. Either setting when viewed in isolation is meaningless. We recommend setting the AVR sub channel level to around -5 (to keep the pre-out signal clean), and then adjusting the gain on the SVS until your desired calibration level is achieved. Don't worry about where the gain ends up - just worry about the calibration level.

Now if you are running an auto cal routine, the set-up is reversed. Set the gain to about 1/2 and then let the AVR run the set-up. Check the subwoofer channel level to make sure it ends up somewhere in the negative range (around -5 on a typical scale of -10 to +10). If it's too high or too low, then adjust the gain accordingly on the SVS and re-run the auto cal routine.

[jvanhambelgium]

Ed,

I've made the PB13 mobile this evening and moved it about 3.2 meters out of the corner.
As a "quick & dirty" test I hooked on my portable PC and put the volume very low (safety...) and also the gain on the PB13
I then went up to 2/8 gain and started rising the output signal on the PC (headphones-out) and I had the X-over engaged to filter out unwanted higher freq.
Tested with some high quality, low freq MP3's ... the muffled sound that came out together with the bass where quite ...

...holy cow... the difference was already day and night. Now I felt the bass and things started to move (some drinking glasses 8meters further seemed to be shaking...)

So basically I think :

- OR the signal from my Onkyo was way to low
- OR I have a serious room problem that is "better" at its current location shifted roughly 3.2meters away from the corner. (room is 12.2meters in length, so that's near 1/3 of the room)

The funny thing is I did the Audessey run yesterday with the sub in the corner and the gain about halfway.
Audessey configured the subwoofer at -15dB.
Even after changing manually to -3dB or even 0dB is still was not the impact that I felt now ...
So by changing that sub-signal to -3dB or 0dB (heck, even tried +3dB if I recall well) no real improvement was there so I guess it is really caused by placement....

Let me fiddle some more and I'll do a new Audessey run tomorrow and see what happens...
Hopefully things will improve much...

Thanks for all comments so far.

[Ed Mullen]

jvanhambelgium wrote:

Ed,

I've made the PB13 mobile this evening and moved it about 3.2 meters out of the corner.
As a "quick & dirty" test I hooked on my portable PC and put the volume very low (safety...) and also the gain on the PB13
I then went up to 2/8 gain and started rising the output signal on the PC (headphones-out) and I had the X-over engaged to filter out unwanted higher freq.
Tested with some high quality, low freq MP3's ... the muffled sound that came out together with the bass where quite ...

...holy cow... the difference was already day and night. Now I felt the bass and things started to move (some drinking glasses 8meters further seemed to be shaking...)

So basically I think :

- OR the signal from my Onkyo was way to low
- OR I have a serious room problem that is "better" at its current location shifted roughly 3.2meters away from the corner. (room is 12.2meters in length, so that's near 1/3 of the room)

The funny thing is I did the Audessey run yesterday with the sub in the corner and the gain about halfway.
Audessey configured the subwoofer at -15dB.
Even after changing manually to -3dB or even 0dB is still was not the impact that I felt now ...
So by changing that sub-signal to -3dB or 0dB (heck, even tried +3dB if I recall well) no real improvement was there so I guess it is really caused by placement....

Let me fiddle some more and I'll do a new Audessey run tomorrow and see what happens...
Hopefully things will improve much...

Thanks for all comments so far.

Glad you are making progress. Make sure you don't have any dynamic range compression (DRC aka midnight mode) or bass limiters running - AVRs are famous for that kind of thing.

Also make sure your DVD is sending the right signal to the AVR with all six channels - including the LFE channel - being properly processed. This is becoming increasingly difficult to verify with HDMI now being used for audio and both players and AVRs being buggy.

[warpdrive]

The first time I ran the Audyssey on my Onkyo, it didn't do a good job with the bass, the bass was very weak, but I ran it a second type (making sure the nearby fridge was off, central heating was off, silenced the nearby clock, disabled the cooling fan in my AV cabinet)....I ensured everything was a quiet as can be and it did a better job.

For all other people, try turning off the Audyssey because I have a feeling sometimes it somehow messes up the bass. Using my SPL meter, I ran the manual test tones on the same receiver receiver and it looked like the bass was about 1 dB too low, so I added 3dB more (a little bit more is nice) and the bass is now very very nice.

[mojomike]

warpdrive wrote:

The first time I ran the Audyssey on my Onkyo, it didn't do a good job with the bass, the bass was very weak, but I ran it a second type (making sure the nearby fridge was off, central heating was off, silenced the nearby clock, disabled the cooling fan in my AV cabinet)....I ensured everything was a quiet as can be and it did a better job.

For all other people, try turning off the Audyssey because I have a feeling sometimes it somehow messes up the bass. Using my SPL meter, I ran the manual test tones on the same receiver receiver and it looked like the bass was about 1 dB too low, so I added 3dB more (a little bit more is nice) and the bass is now very very nice.

That's the ticket. Audyssey can do a pretty good job of flattening out the response if you go through the process very carfully, then when it's done juice up the sub's level a few db to your own taste.

[jvanhambelgium]

I feel the dark forces are working against me !
I moved the sub back to its original position, but now turned 90°C so the driver+ports face a wall (5 inches gap between them)
When doing the test with my laptop connected directly onto the RCA-jacks the power is still there, lot's of bass).

I re-ran Audessey on my 875 but again the output is much,much lower.
When I start playing CD's through my DVD (connected on HDMI) I need to go up to -0dB to feel that bass starts to "punch in". But the volume is very loud.
Quality wise it actually good, so perhaps I can leave my PB13 in that corner facing the wall with its driver.

Now the funny thing, when I go in the Onkyo menu to EQ-settings and DISABLE Audessey its just the same.
Why oh why is de sub-out jack on my Onkyo offering such low signal to the PB13 (even when playing audio near 0db !!)

I'm going to try a FACTORY RESET of my Onkyo now and re-run everthing, perhaps its not completely behaving well ??

[jvanhambelgium]

Hmm, ok there is no such thing as a factory reset on the 875 ... will try Audessey again ... now with the gain set very, very low so perhaps the Onkyo will increase its PRE-OUT sub signal...
From the Onkyo "speaker calibration menu" I manually set the sub to +12dB (the maximum) and that helps ... but I'm not really sure that to correct way to go forward...I have no scope to measure if the pre-out signal at +12dB is clean even at high levels like +0dB

Definately no plug & play in my case

[Sonnie]

What would really be nice to see is a response graph of your sub via REW (see the REW Forum for more info if you are not familiar with it). That would give us a clear picture of what you are hearing. Turn all equalization off on the receiver (turn Audyssey off). Run the Auto-Setup only on your Onkyo with your SVS gain set at about 12 o'clock. Do not run the Audyssey EQ. After you get the Auto-Setup finished, then take a response measurement sweep with REW and post the response graph here. Let's see what it looks like with the sub located in the corner.

[jvanhambelgium]

Sonnie,

Unfortunatly I don't have a suitable MIC for REW.
I already played with REW, but never got any trustworthy results.
I tried using the Onkyo Audessey MIC that comes with the receiver, but I heard that this MIC was specificly for this Audessey implementation so a no go on REW.

I think I will order a C-curve/slow capable SPL-meter now to at least have an idea on the levels.
According to my Onkyo manual, during calibration it actually uses reference-level SPL.

I will run Audessey once more, but now I will set the gain to 12 o'clock....

I will be posting some pictures soon so perhaps some of you might give remarks on placement of the sub...

Thanks!

[jr1414]

I'd be willing to bet that there's some type of DRC activated in the Onkyo. Make sure any dynamic compression is turned to off, make sure that you select your main speakers as small (to avoid diversion of the LFE to your mains/surrounds), make sure midnight mode (or the equivalent) is turned off. Also check the bass management of your DVD player is set properly. Most modern DVD's also offer bass management features, so check the same as you do with the receiver (speaker settings, DRC, etc.)

[jvanhambelgium]

jr1414 wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that there's some type of DRC activated in the Onkyo. Make sure any dynamic compression is turned to off, make sure that you select your main speakers as small (to avoid diversion of the LFE to your mains/surrounds), make sure midnight mode (or the equivalent) is turned off. Also check the bass management of your DVD player is set properly. Most modern DVD's also offer bass management features, so check the same as you do with the receiver (speaker settings, DRC, etc.)

Hi,

Well, my el-cheapo Philips DVD player has indeed the midnight/DRC mode wich is offcourse turned off.
My speakers are configured during the Audessey procedure and they had something like :

- fronts : X-over 90Hz
- center : X-over 120Hz
- surrounds back : X-over 70Hz

Not 1 speaker is set as "large" or "full range"

Also volume levels where set quite moderate after the Audessey routine (I did 3 positions), even up to -8dB for the surround back speakers (which makes sense because the calibration microphone is pretty close (seats) to the back surround channels.
Audessey detected "speaker distances" where actually quite correct, subwoofer included.

For the rest there are no explicit DRC functions on the Onkyo if I recall correctly.
LPF for the LFE is set to 80Hz

I'll do 1 more Audessey run and see what comes out of it, I'll post the values.

Thanks

[Sonnie]

SVSound sales the SPL meter you need and we have correction values for it here that you can download and use in REW.

I would follow Ed's guidelines if you insist on running Audyssey. Setting the gain on the sub lower should help get Audyssey to increase sub preout level some... then you can turn the gain on the sub up a little more if needed.

[thxgoon]

Ya, not to beat a dead horse here but if you are really serious about getting the most performance out of your whole system an extra $40 investment for an SPL meter is not a bad idea. Especially when it allows you to run free software that should probably cost $$$.

Room placement is priority one with any subwoofer system. Eq's and gains can only do so much. Something like REW would allow you to put the sub at your seat and quickly take measurements of possible placement locations and see the best spot. Good luck!

[jvanhambelgium]

I've placed the sub back in the position I originally placed it in.
Take a look at the picture ...


Would this be called "corner loading" . It's strange because the soundwave travel forward with this front-firing unit so I can't understand "the effect" of having it in a corner...If I would turn it 90° so the driver faces that wall THAT seems "corner loaded" to me ?
The waves that propagate out of the front would hit the opposite wall 3.8meters further.

I've re-run Audessey with the GAIN set to 10 o'clock. This resulted in a -6dB setting on Onkyo 875
(I've ran Audessey before with the GAIN on 12 o'clock and it resulted in -15dB calibration)
I've altered some settings in favor of the subwoofer-bass channel (added some dB's) and it starts to sound nicer.

I'm now going to dig out some SPL meter so I can measure on my listening position to see howmuch dB's the sub is doing with its current settings (compared to each of the other channels)
I think that still is something essential to still do as pointed out by the guru's here...

I have to say that for MUSIC it blends in very nice, not too much, not too subtile... When you start playing en you crawl around I noticed that my current listening position is not too bad I think, when I shift to the right for 4 meters bass gets very boomy and overwhelming. Where I sit it is clearly better.

What the Onkyo concerns ; when I now watch movies at -15dB they sound pretty neat. Knowing you can go to +18dB !! that would be the level on which the subwoofer pre-out signal has quite high amplitudes and would drive de PB13 really forward. But at that volume I'm completely DEF with the output made by my monitors!


So currently :

- Did not touch the -6dB subwoofer setting after Audessey run
- Added +3dB on each of the 5.0 listening channels (all where in the -4 to -8dB range after Audessey run)
- did not change Audessey X-overs (set to 120Hz for CENTER, 100Hz for FRONTS, 70Hz for back surr)
- Turned the dial to 12 o'clock after calibration
- Added +6dB on the Onkyo "Intellivolume setting" (this crancks up all input-signal coming in the receiver with 0dB to 12dB)

Any comments on this ?
Thanks

[thxgoon]

Looks like your getting things figured out! I'd say you're on the right track and nice set up btw! Love deftech.

The placement of your sub would be considered corner loading though if you turned it around it would have 'more' corner loading. With the long wavelengths produced by the sub it becomes somewhat non-directional. Think of placement of the sub as placement of the driver itself rather than orientation. In your case though, I would leave it pointed out as your crossovers are set high enough that turning it around might affect those frequencies.