Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 23 Old 08-17-16, 08:46 AM
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Wayne Myers
 
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

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Dwight Angus wrote: View Post
Used the Bosch glm30 today. Is sure speeds up the measuring process. Much better.
You will never go back to a tape measure.

Quote:
...to retain equilateral triangle...
Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.

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I will try some different toe ins tomorrow. Currently the toe in is on axis aimed at the PLP as suggested by manufacturer.
FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is with horn-loaded tweeters.
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post #12 of 23 Old 08-17-16, 09:11 AM
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Hey Dwight - Looks like you're getting some great advice here. I found (with the Triton 2+) that you set-up in post #9 was nearly ideal (in my room)..but my room isn't nearly as long. Sandy Gross did indicate that he though the Tritons would sound best equidistant from each other (and MLP) with direct facing Toe-in. But, every room is different. I'd play a bit more with toe-in (or out) and see if you can hear a difference.
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post #13 of 23 Old 08-17-16, 10:09 AM
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
(...)
Quote:
Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.
One of the best advise I ever had !

Quote:
FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is with horn-loaded tweeters.
Try this. Begin with the speakers aiming at your MLP and gradually, by 10cm steps, open the angle (less toe-in). Suddenly, the stage will go back, instruments will be more defined, the singer will be behind your front wall even in a small room as mine!

Last edited by FargateOne; 08-22-16 at 08:55 AM.
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post #14 of 23 Old 08-17-16, 10:27 AM
 
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
You will never go back to a tape measure.



Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.



FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is with horn-loaded tweeters.
So in my situation with Horns from 400Hz on up...it is best to aim them at the mlp, correct?

Ron

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post #15 of 23 Old 08-18-16, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Because I have an elevated front stage in my HT cannot place speakers closer to front wall, however when moving speakers closer to front wall I noticed an increase in sound pressure. Right now I have a 1 foot gap between speaker & stage edge. I will move the T1's closer to see if I can detect further improvement in sound pressure. I also want to try speakers placed closer together to see what that does.

Mains- Goldenear Triton One's
Center Channel- Goldenear Super Centre XL
Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50's
Back Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50c's
Atmos -Goldenear HTR 7000's
Amps- Bryston 4Bsst2/Emotiva XPA-5/Marantz M7025
Processor-Marantz AV7703 Preamp
Projector- Sony VPL-HW55ES
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-18-16, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
You will never go back to a tape measure.



Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.



FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is horn-loaded tweeters.
I didn't not know that. I always thought I had to achieve Equilateral Triangle. Good to know. I will also try off axis toe-in.

Mains- Goldenear Triton One's
Center Channel- Goldenear Super Centre XL
Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50's
Back Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50c's
Atmos -Goldenear HTR 7000's
Amps- Bryston 4Bsst2/Emotiva XPA-5/Marantz M7025
Processor-Marantz AV7703 Preamp
Projector- Sony VPL-HW55ES
Screen- Elunevision 140 inch 4K Audio Weave
Bluray/Universal player-OPPO 105D
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post #17 of 23 Old 08-18-16, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Quote:
Todd Anderson wrote: View Post
Hey Dwight - Looks like you're getting some great advice here. I found (with the Triton 2+) that you set-up in post #9 was nearly ideal (in my room)..but my room isn't nearly as long. Sandy Gross did indicate that he though the Tritons would sound best equidistant from each other (and MLP) with direct facing Toe-in. But, every room is different. I'd play a bit more with toe-in (or out) and see if you can hear a difference.

Hey Todd

Yes getting lots of good advice. I was following "setup tips" from Sandy Gross including direct facing Toe-n & equidistant setup but will takes Wayne's advice & try some "off axis" setups & alternative speaker placements.

I also want to place speakers closer to front wall. My HT has a front stage so my T1's are 7 ft from front wall in front of front stage. I have about a 1 foot gap between rear of speaker & elevated stage front so I will move it closer & see what that does.

Appreciate the assistance

Mains- Goldenear Triton One's
Center Channel- Goldenear Super Centre XL
Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50's
Back Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50c's
Atmos -Goldenear HTR 7000's
Amps- Bryston 4Bsst2/Emotiva XPA-5/Marantz M7025
Processor-Marantz AV7703 Preamp
Projector- Sony VPL-HW55ES
Screen- Elunevision 140 inch 4K Audio Weave
Bluray/Universal player-OPPO 105D
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post #18 of 23 Old 08-19-16, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Had some time yesterday to try different speaker placements & had some success. I moved the T1's further apart 2 feet from side walls. The distance between speakers is 12 feet measured from centre of tweeter. Distance from PLP to tweeter is 9 ft 10 inches. Toe-in is off axis at 30 degrees. I also moved the T1's back further to the edge of the front stage or 6 feet from front wall. I was shocked how much better it sounded. Localization has disappeared with a much larger sound stage.

I need to do some more listening today & experiment with more toe-ins options.

Mains- Goldenear Triton One's
Center Channel- Goldenear Super Centre XL
Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50's
Back Surrounds- Goldenear SuperSat 50c's
Atmos -Goldenear HTR 7000's
Amps- Bryston 4Bsst2/Emotiva XPA-5/Marantz M7025
Processor-Marantz AV7703 Preamp
Projector- Sony VPL-HW55ES
Screen- Elunevision 140 inch 4K Audio Weave
Bluray/Universal player-OPPO 105D
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post #19 of 23 Old 09-19-16, 09:34 PM
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

Quote:
Dwight Angus wrote: View Post
Had some time yesterday to try different speaker placements & had some success. I moved the T1's further apart 2 feet from side walls. The distance between speakers is 12 feet measured from centre of tweeter. Distance from PLP to tweeter is 9 ft 10 inches. Toe-in is off axis at 30 degrees. I also moved the T1's back further to the edge of the front stage or 6 feet from front wall. I was shocked how much better it sounded. Localization has disappeared with a much larger sound stage.

I need to do some more listening today & experiment with more toe-ins options.
Sounds like what I have heard on numerous occasions... get them out from the front wall with good separation and magic starts to happen in nearly every case.

Have you measured the response of each speaker from your MLP with REW?

Imaging is going to improve significantly with frequency balanced left and right speakers... if you have the system to do it. I have to move the speakers... measure... run Audyssey... measure... listen. Fifty-eleven or more times before getting it right... right Wayne?
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post #20 of 23 Old 09-20-16, 12:10 AM
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Re: Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
So in my situation with Horns from 400Hz on up...it is best to aim them at the mlp, correct?
Horns are a different animal. Yes, in my experience with horn tweeters, start with aiming directly at the MLP. Distance from horn to MLP is critical, must be precise. But do not be afraid to toe in or out a little from that starting point.
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