How many folks have had their displays calibrated?

**fibreKid** · **06-04-06, 09:21 PM**

Hi everyone, I'm not asking about Avia or DVE but having someone come out to your home and calibrate the various video inputs. My question is how much of a difference did it make in the picture?

Thanks much
-john

**nova** · **06-04-06, 10:20 PM**

Nope,... thought about it, but wonder if the difference -if any- would be worth it. Also have to wonder if the guy/gal that comes out to do it know what he/she is doing,... could make things worse.

**Phil M** · **06-05-06, 07:52 AM**

I've had my Runco DLP projector ISF calibrated, is it worth it?
If your a perfectionist then yes, but you can still have great enjoyment without it.
I had an ISF registered calibrater who is well known in the industry, and a bigger perfectionist than I am (thought it wasn't possible). After he left blacks were blacker and whites became snow white, I watched the process and he spent most of his time on greyscale, when he told me there was too much green at this level or too much red at that level I couldn't see the difference. The most noticeable result, and most difficult, was with skin tones - when visitors see skin tones (eg PBS HD) they are shocked as to how natural they are.
Is it worth $400-$500? For my projector yes - would I do it again knowing the result? Yes.
I have a Panasonic HD CRT, it's probably 90% of the way there anyway so as $500 is a major %'age of the cost I will not do it. But for the projector again, its a no brainer.
A couple of weeks ago I went to a nearby dealer, who had the Sony Ruby showing King Kong, the previous night we watched KK at home. The Sony was way off, I could clearly see significant differences in the color palette/blacks/whites even though its a great projector. The dealer does not calibrate when installing - a travesty! Another local dealer has the Ruby in his high end package, and tells me they are way off out of the box - not a knock at Sony, but this is probably the case with most projectors.

Regarding calibraters, I would find an ISF trained calibrater - but you have to be aware that an ISF image is 'film like' and not 'TV' like - it's possibly a little darker than your used too.

Link to ISF calibraters
http://www.imagingscience.com/isf-trained.cfm

Trust sharing my experiences helps.

**fibreKid** · **06-06-06, 11:49 PM**

Thanks for the thoughts, I have a Samsung DLP TV. It looks pretty good now but since I'm never going to have a big screen nor a dedicated room, I figure I want to get the most out of what I have.

**khellandros66** · **06-09-06, 11:35 PM**

Phil was your Runco ISF calibrated the last time we were over (in Feb) or was it calibrated afterwards??

If so then I am anxious to see the difference in the contrast cause there were times where the blacks seemed thin and the whites were a little grey. This of course could be result of the source material and movie etc.

~Bob

**Phil M** · **06-10-06, 04:10 PM**

It was calibrated, whites are very good, blacks do go deep but limited by the nature of the DLP chip.
But still very good - guess I need to calibrate you Bob

Or send you a seismic wave from my SVS

**khellandros66** · **06-11-06, 12:26 AM**

If memory serves me it was in Nemo though I despise that movie with my soul... I decided to pop it into my player and found their black level in the movie to be very thin. Something tells me this DVD was poorly encoded or in their process of making it they used standard PC RGB (Y. Pb, Pr) based 3D Animation instead of CMYK (Compnent video Y,Cb,Pr). Then inherently blacks wouldn't be the same after conversion. Since I am using the HDMI output non of the typical MPEG2 Codec enhancements are used and the raw unfiltered DVD is shown. This was also very unforgiving in movies like Relic where the DVD transfer is rubbish without these filters.

Perhaps the Runco VXP Processor you use has similar doing's it is more true the DVD's original image. I think perhaps we will have to look at something I am familiar with next time I am over.

No doubt my slight case of Red and Green color blindness is a factor too (yes I still see most of both colors but shades will fall outside my spectrum and appear greyish)

~Bob

**lcaillo** · **06-11-06, 02:24 PM**

My question to people who want their displays calibrated is always, "What do you want that is different than what you currently see?" If the anen swer is something like, "I don't know, I just want it to be right," then it is time for some education. The limitation of most calibrators is that they do not educate viewers and users on how to make their display more enjoyable to watch, but sell them on their particular "standard."

I have been tweaking displays since the earliest days of projection television, and have learned that what makes a display impress people has less to do with expensive calibration than it has to do with educated users. While there are some very good calibrators that provide a very valuable service in a very professional manner, most people do not need their services.

That said, don't get the idea that most displays come from the manufacturers properly calibrated. They generally do not. There are a few techniques that any user should learn and a few concepts that every user should understand to get the most out of a display, with our without a professional calibrator.

First, sources vary greatly in the needed adjustments for contrast and brightness. Not just by device, but by program. If a display is properly calibrated for a given disc or given signal generator, there is little reason to expect that every other disc or every cable convertor, sat receiver, or every particualr program on a given channel might not require different settings for contrast and brightness. Calibrated settings are a start, but from there you have to know how to adjust the pix and should not be afraid to do so. The bottom line is that one should adjust the contrast as low as possible that the pix still has the neccesary brightness in the whites and "snap" that one desires, but not much higher in order to maintain the best detail in the more intense areas. The brightness should be set so that dark areas have adequate detail, but blacks are black, not higher. These two adjustments alone will make more difference than any others in what viewers perceive as a great pix.

Second, "standards" for color temperature are not necessarily what most people like in a displayed image. People differ in their perception of color, perception changes over time, displays vary in their linearity over ranges of stimulation, many displays vary considerably over time in color temperature, and most importantly, human perception of color is quite adaptable and accomodates large ranges of variation.

Third, actual complete calibration of many displays requires skills that many "calibrators" have no idea how to perform, such as G2 levels, electromagnetic and electrostatic focusing, and other setup functions that go beyond knowing how to use a spectroradiomenter and a spreadsheet. How many calibrators show up with a scope and a service manual or training documentation for the display. Since most consumers have no idea what is possible with a given component, much calibration amounts to expensive hand-waving and declaration that a display is "calibrated" but may not bring a given unit to its highest level of performance, particularly for a given application. To do so requires a tech who is very knowlegable about the product and has a lot of experience with it, a consumer that understands what the display is capable of and how to adjust the consumer controls, and the proper equipment and experience to perform professional calibration. Ultimately, most people can get the biggest bang from simply being educated on how the display works and how to adjust it themselves.

**nova** · **06-11-06, 06:53 PM**

Well Leonard,...

That pretty well sums up why I have not had mine calibrated. I don't know enough about what I don't know, and I'm afraid whoever comes out to calibrate will know less than me

Then one day I got into the service menu of my GWIII (made NO adjustments, just looked around and understood none of it

) decided the AVIA cal was good enough for me,... for now.

**Phil M** · **06-11-06, 07:14 PM**

Quote:

khellandros66 wrote:

Phil was your Runco ISF calibrated the last time we were over (in Feb) or was it calibrated afterwards??

If so then I am anxious to see the difference in the contrast cause there were times where the blacks seemed thin and the whites were a little grey. This of course could be result of the source material and movie etc.

~Bob

Bob,
Whites:
Here is screen shot of a shuttle launch through clouds (which are a good test of white balance - too much and they get crushed), resolution is poor at this file size.

**khellandros66** · **06-11-06, 08:02 PM**

Ahhhhh I seee yeah thats why. I have a very bright display here 750cdm2 and have the brightness and contrast for DVD's and HDTV calibrated using the THX Optimode. With my LCD tv the black are very thick in comparison prolly due to the fact that LCD can shut off each pixel. In projection the blacks are relient on the mirror not allowing the light to play out. Maybe to me your blacks seemed thin because of this dispute in technology.

Your projector is almost 2x-3x brighter as well so that makes is difference as well.

~Bob

**lcaillo** · **06-12-06, 07:07 AM**

Quote:

khellandros66 wrote:

Ahhhhh I seee yeah thats why. I have a very bright display here 750cdm2 and have the brightness and contrast for DVD's and HDTV calibrated using the THX Optimode. With my LCD tv the black are very thick in comparison prolly due to the fact that LCD can shut off each pixel. In projection the blacks are relient on the mirror not allowing the light to play out. Maybe to me your blacks seemed thin because of this dispute in technology.

Your projector is almost 2x-3x brighter as well so that makes is difference as well.

~Bob

Actually, It is not possible for LCDs to completely shut off the light and this is why they usually have poorer blacks. The mirror in any system only reflects the light if it is produced. CRTs can be cut off completely. If you cannot adjust the pix for good blacks without losing dark area detail, you might have exaggerated gamma correction, or the source might just be less bright. This is why you should adjust for each program and not rely on calibration alone. The idea that one can have a display calibrated and it will look best for every program is simply faulty.

**Phil M** · **06-13-06, 12:29 PM**

Tried to get some white differentiated screen shots up for Bob:

**Tommy** · **06-17-06, 11:45 PM**

Are there any comparision pictures available? I would be interested in seeing the difference in before and after pictures of say something calibrated with the AVIA to a ISF calibration.

**Phil M** · **06-18-06, 06:51 AM**

Tom, I have the calibration values written down and could do a factory reset and then re-program them in. Let me take a look (i'm nervous about getting into the service/calibration menu and screwing up). My local dealer had the best idea, two identical TV's one ISF calibrated the other with the Avia test discs - the challenge being to do the best you can and then compare with the ISF set, the objective being to demonstrate the difference and generate calibration business.

**Tommy** · **06-18-06, 03:13 PM**

That would be very interesting to see

**brucek** · **06-19-06, 06:07 AM**

Quote:

My local dealer had the best idea, two identical TV's one ISF calibrated the other with the Avia test discs

I don't know if that test would be very meaningful. A lot would depend on what adjustments were initially incorrect, not to mention that it would also be quite easy to 'create' advantageous results.

The basic adjustments that AVIA etc. allows are quite effective, but only go so far. If the set under test suffers from poor linearity, poor mechanical focus, poor convergence, poor grey scale tracking etc., then the ISF vs AVIA would be obvious. If the display has those deeper settings already in fairly good shape, then the AVIA vs ISF calibration would be indiscernible. So what would be the point. Who would decide how far off the two sets should be for the adjustments that AVIA didn't have access to?

I know with my own CRT based RPTV that after I did a full alignment (I had access to a color analyzer etc), that the display from the factory had a horrible grey scale and quite poor focus (which required mechanically racking the CRT's). Agreed with the newer digital displays that a lot of the problems (certainly linearity) have been solved, but I think it depends on the specific unit whether user level adjustments accessed by AVIA are good enough.

Surely if a calibrator takes a course and has some test equipment they would be able to properly set up a television. Especially for the price they charge. Although I guess there's an awful lot of different sets on the market. Do they have service mode information on all of them?

brucek

**Phil M** · **06-19-06, 01:30 PM**

[quote=lcaillo]

Second, "standards" for color temperature are not necessarily what most people like in a displayed image. People differ in their perception of color, perception changes over time, displays vary in their linearity over ranges of stimulation, many displays vary considerably over time in color temperature, and most importantly, human perception of color is quite adaptable and accomodates large ranges of variation.

QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more - most viewers are more than happy to crank up the color/brightness/picture/sharpness controls, and prefer it that way. Not only to an ISF calibration but also against a simple Avia type calibration. My Pansonic HD CRT was Avia calibrated, when having trouble with cable dropout the cable engineer came to the house and watched in amazement claiming it was the best HD picture he'd seen. But I would hazard a guess that most users would find it too dull and colorless.

**Phil M** · **06-19-06, 01:38 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

I don't know if that test would be very meaningful. A lot would depend on what adjustments were initially incorrect, not to mention that it would also be quite easy to 'create' advantageous results.

The basic adjustments that AVIA etc. allows are quite effective, but only go so far. If the set under test suffers from poor linearity, poor mechanical focus, poor convergence, poor grey scale tracking etc., then the ISF vs AVIA would be obvious. If the display has those deeper settings already in fairly good shape, then the AVIA vs ISF calibration would be indiscernible. So what would be the point. Who would decide how far off the two sets should be for the adjustments that AVIA didn't have access to?

I know with my own CRT based RPTV that after I did a full alignment (I had access to a color analyzer etc), that the display from the factory had a horrible grey scale and quite poor focus (which required mechanically racking the CRT's). Agreed with the newer digital displays that a lot of the problems (certainly linearity) have been solved, but I think it depends on the specific unit whether user level adjustments accessed by AVIA are good enough.

Surely if a calibrator takes a course and has some test equipment they would be able to properly set up a television. Especially for the price they charge. Although I guess there's an awful lot of different sets on the market. Do they have service mode information on all of them?

brucek

Didn't think about the scientific approach of having two sets both identical in the begiining, a cunning retailer could fix the user controlled set to make it so way off in the beginning to make it unfixable using user controls. The dealer who I was talking to only sold Sony's and was focusing only on Sony dispays.
The sad thing is that they are so way off out the factory, surely users can dial in what they prefer but should at least have a fair chance by having a factory 'reset' thats close to a standard - its a disgrace

I even saw a $10k projector, and the outofthebox calibration was terrible - and the installer just tweaks it, no IRE/Gamma changes, just the usual brightness/picture/color.

**fibreKid** · **06-20-06, 04:28 PM**

I just went through an Avia tune up on a neighbors new 46" DLP. The before to after results were quite good. I did notice that the gray scale was off when I went through a series of b/w ramps of various flavors though. The mid to darker gray had a slight greenish hue. It wasn't huge and it was only for that shade that I could see.
I was thinking to myself that a service menu calibration would fix that right up.

-john

**fibreKid** · **06-20-06, 09:22 PM**

Using images on two side by side TVs might not provide a big difference. It might be better to have two TVs displaying Avia test patterns, one adjusted with Avia and the other calibrated.
That would be neat to see.

**11B2P** · **07-22-06, 02:17 AM**

I had my Sony KV-40XBR800 ISF calibrated by Gregg Lowen in June of this year and I have to say the difference was amazing.

The calibration actually brightened my picture, gave it depth, made colors pop, and gave the blacks detail.

Of course YMMV but I am glad I had it done.

-Bill

**lcaillo** · **07-22-06, 12:51 PM**

Did you learn what he did that made the big differences?

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