Rear projection TV

**aceinc** · **01-20-07, 04:02 PM**

I am looking for a second TV for my family room. I currently have a rear projection 4x3 Toshiba that is getting long in the tooth. My HT tv is an Aquos 46" 1080p LCD.

I want to get the biggest screen (up to about 65") with the best picture for the least money (<$2,000) since this is a "second" tv. There is the debate about DLP vs LCD vs D-ILA vs LCOS. Everything I read about D-ILA says it is more better than the other technologies.

I'm interested in finding "objective?" articles on this topic, as well as opinions from folks here.

Please weigh in with your thoughts.

Paul

**Prof.** · **01-20-07, 05:19 PM**

Hi Paul,

Is front projection out of the question?
You can certainly get a nice projector (and probably a screen) for < $2000, as well as a much larger picture..

**Dougie085** · **01-20-07, 06:44 PM**

You could get a 1080p RPTV for about 2000 if you wanted 1080p. The samsung 1080p's are nice and pretty cheap!

**aceinc** · **01-21-07, 12:01 PM**

Thanks for your replies.

I don't have any problem finding 1080p projection tv's for under $2,000. The question I am interested in finding an answer to is what technology is better & why?

In looking at DLP it seems like a Rube Goldberg contraption, what with all the flipping mirrors spinning color wheels & whatnot. MTBF seems like it would be a concern with this technology, as well as the other visual issues such as rainbows etc.

I guess the problem with LCD is the size of the grid and screen door effect...

At any rate If anyone has info regarding the techonologies I would appreciate the info.

Paul

**Dougie085** · **01-21-07, 08:56 PM**

Well are you prone to the Rainbow effect? And I've never noticed SDE on an LCD RPTV. Honestly its all about you. If you can't see SDE or the Rainbows then you could go either way. They both look outstanding!

**Sonnie** · **01-21-07, 10:06 PM**

I wouldn't mind knowing a little more about the technologies myself. I've never really fully understood the technical differences of what would make one better than the other.

**lcaillo** · **01-22-07, 05:38 AM**

Quote:

aceinc wrote:

Thanks for your replies.

I don't have any problem finding 1080p projection tv's for under $2,000. The question I am interested in finding an answer to is what technology is better & why?

In looking at DLP it seems like a Rube Goldberg contraption, what with all the flipping mirrors spinning color wheels & whatnot. MTBF seems like it would be a concern with this technology, as well as the other visual issues such as rainbows etc.

I guess the problem with LCD is the size of the grid and screen door effect...

At any rate If anyone has info regarding the techonologies I would appreciate the info.

Paul

Actually, for front and rear projection technologies, DLP will likely turn out to be the most reliable because it is a simpler system. I have yet to see a failure of a DMD chip in the years that we have been selling DLP based systems. At least one vendor claims that in extenisive testing they have run chips over 100,000 hours with zero failures. There are, of course, related electronics that break, like any other system. The color wheel has been the subject of much concern. I can tell you that I have had exactly one color wheel failure in the many sets we have sold, but we do not sell Samsung nor RCA, which have a reputation for many more of these types of failures.

The single chip solution with the color wheel avoids a very complex light path found in all three chip systems, and uses only one display device. The filters and polarizers in LCD and LCOS systems have been a common source of problems for years, as well as problems due to light path obstruction because the parts end up needing cleaning. LCD projection panels have had heat related failures, LCOS and SXRD have had uniformity issues. In the better sets most of these problems are minimal, and as in other technologies the problems seem to come in spurts or bathches.

There are many caveats and variables in all the technologies, and there will be as much variance in reliability and performance within a technology as betweeen them. There is lots of junk out there and lots of great product. There are vendors that support the product and some that won't provide parts nor manuals to service them. I will be happy to answer your questions from the viewpoint of a service tech for a company that specializes in home theater installation. We sell only mid to higher end product, but I get to see most brands in service.

**aceinc** · **01-22-07, 07:35 PM**

What brands do you have experience servicing?

Of course the next question is which brands are most reliable?

I have read that the light is one of the areas that separate the different MFRs. Some lights degrade over time, some work well until they die, some die quickly, some take longer, some are very expensive and difficult to replace, others aren't. It would be nice to know which MFR's have which types of lights, or perhaps what to look for in the light.

One problem I have with my old Toshiba is that it needs to be refocused regularly which you do from the remote. Do any of the current technologies have this "feature?"

From my research it appears that LCOS, SXRD and DILA are very similar technologies, is this true?

Paul

**lcaillo** · **01-22-07, 10:45 PM**

I service most major brands , but mostly Mitsubishi, Sony, Hitachi, Toshiba.

We sell the Sony and Mitsubishi, mostly. We have found them to be very high in reliability. I cannot keep busy enough just servicing what we sell so we take on other brands. Generally, I like Hitachi as well. I have not been very impressed with Toshiba in recent years. I am not sure what you mean by refocusing your Toshiba. Do you mean adjusting the convergence? The newer technologies do not have convergence adjustments, for the most part.

Yes, LCOS, SXRD, and DILA are essentially similar.

**aceinc** · **01-22-07, 11:05 PM**

Leonard:

Thanks for the post, yes it is convergence.

From your post I take it that Sony and Mitsubishi have few repair issues.

What Mfr's do you see most frequently, and for what problem?

The current Sony models use SXRD which is essentially the same as JVC's D-ILA. If everything is equal (size, 1080p...) between a JVC & Sony, but the JVC is $3-400 less (sometimes more), why would I buy a Sony?

It gets a bit more complicated with Mistubishi vs Sony since Mits. use DLP, but I believe the same holds true pricewise between the Mits. & the Sony, so why buy the Sony?

Just as an aside, I occasionally see the HP 65" 1080p unit on sale for < $2,000 any comments on this unit?

Paul

**lcaillo** · **01-22-07, 11:27 PM**

Personally, I like the Mitsubishi best if you get at least the 732 series which have the ability to correct colors adequately.

I have never been a fan of JVC. They have been a very arrogant company and have done some things in design and service that I think are very poor judgement and poor customer service. Overall, their sets have varied in performance but are similar to the Sony, Mits, and Samsung. These are the top tier of performance in RPTV, IMO.

The reason that we offer Sony and Mitsubishi is that we feel they offer the best overall value most of the time, and most importantly, we feel comfortable in our ability to support the product with service. While I find the Sony to be slightly less detailed than the Mits for HD, they calibrate out nicely and can be adjusted to accomodate lousy 480i sources better than other sets.

The rest of the story is that you could get any of the four brands mentioned (their better sets) and properly calibrated, any one would blow the others away OOB (out-of-box, uncalibrated). How you calibrate and use the sets makes more difference than the brand in many cases.

A major consideration that most people forget is service. I would make sure that you have a very good servicer avaialable for whichever set you choose, who has a good relationship with the mftr and is very familiar with the sets.

Whatever you get, have it installed and calibrated properly, use good basic surge suppresion, and learn how to use the consumer contrls to get the most out of your set.

As for products like the HP, just look at them carefully and ask some detailed questions regarding service. What parts are available? Who are the local servicers? Do they supply service manuals or technical training for the product? Think about the Gateway PDP fiasco. What happens when it breaks and they want $250 for a service call to come out an tell you that it will cost more to fix than a new set, or that there are no parts available? What happens when HP decides that they don't realy want to lose any more money in the home electronics business, like Gateway did, and drops the product?

**aceinc** · **01-23-07, 11:45 AM**

Leonard:

Calibration brings up a bit of a sore point with me. Obviously stores such as Circuit City, Best Buy, Sound Advice aka Tweeter are not making much in the way of margins these days and they really need to push service to increase their bottom lines. But what I would like to see is these stores offering calibration DVD's for DIY's, and they don't.

If you ask whether they carry a calibration dvd they get that smug/holier than thou look on their face and say that they would be happy to send out a technician with equipment that is too sophisticated for a meer mortal to have, to calibrate your set. The cost of course is >$300.

Sorry about the rant, since you are a tech, you may identify more with the stores on this matter than the consumer. I too am a tech, not television, but computers and I happily tell my customers that want to do things for themself where and how to go about it. I know that most customers don't want to do things for themselves, and those that do will eventually call me in when the going gets tough. BTW, when the do it yourselfers do call me back in it usually is for a more interesting problem than simple configuration/setup issues.

What would you recommend the DIY type person should have for video calibration? Where can I get it? I have REW and the tools needed for audio calibration. PC based video tuning software would be nice.

Paul

**Dougie085** · **01-23-07, 01:27 PM**

There is a DVD you can purchase called DVE (Digital Video Essentials) you can get it here

Also there is an AVIA guide that they have on there it has a "buy together" thing if you look lower.

**lcaillo** · **01-23-07, 04:35 PM**

I recommend getting to know and using DVE and Avia, as well as the GetGray disc. If you want instrumentation to make accurate measurements, I suggest the Gretag Macbeth EyeOne spectroradiometers and the CalMan or AccuCal software. I also use Accupel and Sencore signal generators.

No reason you should be hostile about calibration. There is plenty of DIY help here, on the CalMan forum and on AVS.

**Dougie085** · **01-23-07, 04:38 PM**

Will those Gretag EyeOne's they don't work for a front projection setup do they?

**lcaillo** · **01-23-07, 04:39 PM**

They do. The EyeOne Beamer is specifically designed for that purpose.

**aceinc** · **01-28-07, 02:09 PM**

I received a flyer today that had two inexpensive 65" TV's. I thought I would ask your opinions.

The first is an HP MD6580 for $1,798

The second is a Mitsubishi WD-65731 for $1,998

Which would you buy (if either) and why? or why not?

I found that Mitsbushi has a WD-65732, and the only difference I can see is something called the dark detailer.

**lcaillo** · **01-28-07, 04:39 PM**

No contest between the HP and the Mitsubishi...get the Mitsubishi.

The 732 series Mitsubishi has several differences, but the big one is the PerfectTint controls that alow color correction that the 731 series does not. If you plan to have it calibrated or have your own equipment to do do it is a big beneifit. If you don't, few consumers will find it very useful as it is very hard to get right by eyeballing it or using color filters.

**Rex** · **10-27-07, 10:35 AM**

I note the clamor for 1080p units. Since the only source for 1080p comes from either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, I wonder what people with 1080p are watching, since there is so little material available.

Spending a thousand or two or more on a television is interesting. I see older, rear-projection big-screen units on Craigs List, eBay, and the classifieds for prices starting below $100. What sort of upgrades are suggested if one picks up one of the monster sized bargains? Just wondering.

**bobgpsr** · **10-28-07, 09:25 AM**

Quote:

Rex wrote:

I note the clamor for 1080p units. Since the only source for 1080p comes from either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, I wonder what people with 1080p are watching, since there is so little material available.

The new digital display technologies: Plasma, DLP, LCD, etc do not implement interlaced -- they only display progressive.

HDTV is most often 1080i60 these days (except for ABC, ESPN & Fox). Digital displays have to convert the 1080i to 1080p.

Just old CRT's can easily do interlaced at the display (CRT) itself due to the scanning technique and phosphor decay that matches the scan rate requirements.

So there is a huge amount of 1080 content out there on ATSC (Over The Air), cable QAM channels, and direct broadcast satellite -- along with DVHS, HD DVD and BD media.

**lcaillo** · **10-28-07, 03:19 PM**

Quote:

aceinc wrote:

Thanks for your replies.

I don't have any problem finding 1080p projection tv's for under $2,000. The question I am interested in finding an answer to is what technology is better & why?

In looking at DLP it seems like a Rube Goldberg contraption, what with all the flipping mirrors spinning color wheels & whatnot. MTBF seems like it would be a concern with this technology, as well as the other visual issues such as rainbows etc.

I guess the problem with LCD is the size of the grid and screen door effect...

At any rate If anyone has info regarding the techonologies I would appreciate the info.

Paul

The DLP chips themselves have been more reliable than any other technology. The color wheels have varied greatly with some brands having lots of problems with them and virtualy none in other brands. Beyond the display technology, power supply, video processing, and other circuits are similar and have similar inter-brand variances in reliability. LCD and LCOS projection systems have both been far less reliable than DLP, because of the nature of the microdisplay devices and the complexity of the three-chip system.

In flat panel systems, LCD and PDP have been very reliable in the better brands, with an inherent reliability edge going to LCD because of the lower current requirements and greater durability of the LCD compared to phosphors.

Performance can b e exceptional in any of the curent technologies, depending on the priorities of the user and the application. Not all brands and models are created equal, however, and there are dogs in any breed.

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