Just Joined - So Hello to All

[tomacco]

I am a physicist, who ended up in the electronics industry. I've been doing military design for 28 years, and have always been interested in audio. I just bought myself a pair of Axiom M60 V2's, and a Chinese tube integrated amp and Chinese tube CD player (at a price that could not be refused). At Axiom's site I've been reading a lot about subs, and given my like for organ music, this naturally spurred me on to investigate subs. Little did I know how cantankerous they are, and after many hours of research, I ended up here.

Here's some background on my philosophy on music.

I've been telling 'meat-heads' that once you surpass some threshold (and it isn't very high), you'll get music which sounds different, but NOT better.

So one guy/gall says my $15,000 Krell sounds better than your $350 cheap tube amp. Oh, really? You mean you had Diana Ross at your house singing, and then you told her to shut up, put on her CD, and noted where there were differences, if any? No, there couldn't be any differences because you have an expensive Krell, and wire that costs $20/ft., and all kinds of other audio trash connected to your system.

The audio manufacturers love you! They created this scam, and you and your buddies took the bate (I'm speaking in general, and not directing this to anyone on this forum). And next year, they'll come out with another model of something that performed well 15 years ago, and retag it, and the suckers will be out there again. It's a self-perpetuating industry. But some people just don't get it.

It your going to spend more money, sink it into the quality (e.g. big, fat, heavy transformers that cost a lot of money). The musical part of the gizmo you buy will only tell you that the music is different, not better.

Now, cogitate on that for a while. Next time rethink what you buy. And pls., don't come crying to me telling me how full of I am because you were one of the suckers who blew $30K on an audio system that should probably cost less than $2K, or whatever figure you had originally budgeted for, when your mind was in value-mode, not stupid-spender mode.

Now that was a lot said, and I'm here to find out whether these provocative statements are true or false.

I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT. If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget? Every HT setup I've heard stinks.

So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer - maybe because I'm, too direct, maybe it's been answered, or maybe it's just a plain stupid question. But that's the way I am.

I never try to offend anyone, but I don't skate around issues like the metro-men we have today. Get to the point, and be polite.

I've spilled my guts, so now it's time for someone to go for the jugular!

[Geoff St. Germain]

Welcome to the Shack. Good to see another physicist (and Canuck) around.

[tomacco]

Geoff St. Germain wrote:

Welcome to the Shack. Good to see another physicist (and Canuck) around.

Thanks for the pleasant greeting. Unfortunately my physicist skills were perverted by engineering skills (just joking). I hope I wasn't too outspoken, but it irritates me to no end when people dance around an issue. I feel like saying "spit it out man!"
Anyways, the people on this Forum thus far seem like a very likable crew, and I look forward to "tapping their" brains.

Best Regards
Eric G.

[Mike P.]

Hi Eric and welcome to the Shack! I have a question for you. Since you stated
""I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.""
Does that mean anyone who has a sub for HT is off track?

[Otto]

Hi Eric, and welcome to the Shack.

I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.

Hmmm. I think many would feel the opposite -- that you can reproduce most music with a good floorstanding speaker (one that'll hit into the 30Hz range). Now, you said you're into organ music, so you're an outlying data point. A sub will definitely serve you well for that type of music. I also use my sub when listening to two-channel music, and my mains will hit 30 Hz.

If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget?

Well, most theaters I've been to aren't the greatest for sound. They're likely set up once by the vendor and then they go from there. I've seen them be too loud, unbalanced, and lacking in bass. I generally don't go to the theater anymore, especially since every half-witted teen has a cell phone (not that every teen is half-witted, but the ones that are........).

Every HT setup I've heard stinks.

That's too bad. Don't lose faith, though. It's not that hard to pull off correctly, and I don't even think you have to break the bank. In my opinion, good HT is easier to do than good two-channel music.

So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer -

Well, for most people just getting into it, I'd recommend the 1124 for bass EQ duties only. I read your other thread, and it appears that there have been a few responses. If you're missing a specific response to a specific question, re-ask it; the people around here are knowledgable and professional about HT and audio in general.

Again, welcome to the Shack!

[tonyvdb]

Hello Eric, Welcome aboard the Shack.
Wow, your going to start a great debate over that "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT" you know that hey...
Personally I will have to say that a sub is needed in most systems as probably 75% of us don't have speakers that are capable of reproducing the lower frequencies (below 30Hz) that are available in movie and some music soundtracks particularly at volumes well below reference levels.

[tomacco]

Mike P. wrote:

Hi Eric and welcome to the Shack! I have a question for you. Since you stated
""I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.""
Does that mean anyone who has a sub for HT is off track?

Not at all - I'm probably "off-track", and I'm on this Forum to find that out! It's only my opinion, and it's not an arbitrary opinion. It's based on the audio I hear at the cinemas, which I think is disgraceful. The audio is incredibly loud, in fact so loud, I can't really determine the quality of it (read degree of distortion), and I don't have a keen ear. Everyone has a perception as to what they consider musical, and if one considers HT (with sub(s)) musical, I'm happy for them (and I'm a little jealous). And if it's not quite musical, they're probably working at making it so. In any event, they're having fun, and that's what life is supposed to be. I intend to have fun too.
As I said in my introductory, my ideas may be off-base, and my goal is to find out if I am. I am open to any criticism, no matter how harsh, because I consider that criticism a "free" lesson in engineering.

Best Regards
Eric G.

I do seem to praddle on, but the long and short of it is

[lcaillo]

tomacco wrote:

I never try to offend anyone, but I don't skate around issues like the metro-men we have today. Get to the point, and be polite.
I've spilled my guts, so now it's time for someone to go for the jugular!

Welcome to the shack. You won't find anyone going for the jugular here. It just is not how we do things. Your post seems intended to attract a debate, and that is a good thing. Some of your opinions seem a bit off-tilt, but as most are, likely based on some truth. You will probably find that there are lots of folks here with lots of differing opinions, and not many who tend to skate around issues. We can discuss, debate, learn, and teach all at the same time that we remain civil. As my Dad used to say, you seem like someone willing to tell "how the cow eats the cabbage." That is fine, just keep it clear what is opinion and what is fact, respect the rights of others to differ, and you will find this is a great place to be.

Hmmm a physicist turned engineer. I expect some interesting discussions are coming...

[tomacco]

Greetings Otto:

I don't know how to use this quote system, so things could go amuck. When I have time, I'll get my 15 yr. old daughter to show me the nuances of this system. In the mean time, you're going to hate this work-around (but remember to keep forgiveness in your heart):


Eric said: "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT."

Otto answered: "Hmmm. I think many would feel the opposite -- that you can reproduce most music with a good floorstanding speaker (one that'll hit into the 30Hz range). Now, you said you're into organ music, so you're an outlying data point. A sub will definitely serve you well for that type of music. I also use my sub when listening to two-channel music, and my mains will hit 30 Hz.

Eric's reply: "To listen to organ music, a speaker is going to have to reproduce 16 Hz (that's what you'll feel, not hear), and the 1st harmonic. Although my speakers do an adequate job of providing enjoyment, I experimented with a sub, and although the sub provided a poor sound (I don't blame the sub), I am now missing something in my life. I am hoping my next sub, reinforced with knowledge and perhaps some electronics (read parametric equalizer) will supplement the lower end, and I'm willing to work at it, and have a lot of fun - I hope."


Eric said: "If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget?

Otto answered: "Well, most theaters I've been to aren't the greatest for sound. They're likely set up once by the vendor and then they go from there. I've seen them be too loud, unbalanced, and lacking in bass. I generally don't go to the theater anymore, especially since every half-witted teen has a cell phone (not that every teen is half-witted, but the ones that are........).

Eric answered: "Everything that you have stated, describe my complaints exactly. I wish I would have described it like that."


Eric said: "Every HT setup I've heard stinks."

Otto answered: "That's too bad. Don't lose faith, though. It's not that hard to pull off correctly, and I don't even think you have to break the bank. In my opinion, good HT is easier to do than good two-channel music.

Eric answered: "That is VERY encouraging to hear. From everything I've read thus far, I've been given the impression I'm going to have to slay a dragon."


Eric said: "So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer -"

Otto answered: "Well, for most people just getting into it, I'd recommend the 1124 for bass EQ duties only. I read your other thread, and it appears that there have been a few responses. If you're missing a specific response to a specific question, re-ask it; the people around here are knowledgable and professional about HT and audio in general.

Again, welcome to the Shack!

Eric relied: "I appreciate very much your recommended starting point - seems that's where a lot of people get their 'legs'. And thanks again for the pleasant greeting.

[tomacco]

tonyvdb wrote:

Hello Eric, Welcome aboard the Shack.
Wow, your going to start a great debate over that "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT" you know that hey...
Personally I will have to say that a sub is needed in most systems as probably 75% of us don't have speakers that are capable of reproducing the lower frequencies (below 30Hz) that are available in movie and some music soundtracks particularly at volumes well below reference levels.

tonyvdb: Thanks for your greeting!

Pls. read my answer to Mike P. I think my comments are cogent, and allow me to hold my ground (at least for a little while).

As for the rest of your E-mail, I'm in full agreement. Sometimes I may respond in a contradictory manner, but that's because I have an opinion in the back of my head that's being slowly changed as I learn from the members of this Forum.

I offer no excuses, but that's the way it is.

Thanks again!