Just Joined - So Hello to All

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 04:33 PM**

I am a physicist, who ended up in the electronics industry. I've been doing military design for 28 years, and have always been interested in audio. I just bought myself a pair of Axiom M60 V2's, and a Chinese tube integrated amp and Chinese tube CD player (at a price that could not be refused). At Axiom's site I've been reading a lot about subs, and given my like for organ music, this naturally spurred me on to investigate subs. Little did I know how cantankerous they are, and after many hours of research, I ended up here.

Here's some background on my philosophy on music.

I've been telling 'meat-heads' that once you surpass some threshold (and it isn't very high), you'll get music which sounds different, but NOT better.

So one guy/gall says my $15,000 Krell sounds better than your $350 cheap tube amp. Oh, really? You mean you had Diana Ross at your house singing, and then you told her to shut up, put on her CD, and noted where there were differences, if any? No, there couldn't be any differences because you have an expensive Krell, and wire that costs $20/ft., and all kinds of other audio trash connected to your system.

The audio manufacturers love you! They created this scam, and you and your buddies took the bate (I'm speaking in general, and not directing this to anyone on this forum). And next year, they'll come out with another model of something that performed well 15 years ago, and retag it, and the suckers will be out there again. It's a self-perpetuating industry. But some people just don't get it.

It your going to spend more money, sink it into the quality (e.g. big, fat, heavy transformers that cost a lot of money). The musical part of the gizmo you buy will only tell you that the music is different, not better.

Now, cogitate on that for a while. Next time rethink what you buy. And pls., don't come crying to me telling me how full of crap I am because you were one of the suckers who blew $30K on an audio system that should probably cost less than $2K, or whatever figure you had originally budgeted for, when your mind was in value-mode, not stupid-spender mode.

Now that was a lot said, and I'm here to find out whether these provocative statements are true or false.

I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT. If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget? Every HT setup I've heard stinks.

So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer - maybe because I'm, too direct, maybe it's been answered, or maybe it's just a plain stupid question. But that's the way I am.

I never try to offend anyone, but I don't skate around issues like the metro-men we have today. Get to the point, and be polite.

I've spilled my guts, so now it's time for someone to go for the jugular!

**Geoff St. Germain** · **12-11-07, 04:43 PM**

Welcome to the Shack. Good to see another physicist (and Canuck) around.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 04:59 PM**

Quote:

Geoff St. Germain wrote:

Welcome to the Shack. Good to see another physicist (and Canuck) around.

Thanks for the pleasant greeting. Unfortunately my physicist skills were perverted by engineering skills (just joking). I hope I wasn't too outspoken, but it irritates me to no end when people dance around an issue. I feel like saying "spit it out man!"
Anyways, the people on this Forum thus far seem like a very likable crew, and I look forward to "tapping their" brains.

Best Regards
Eric G.

**Mike P.** · **12-11-07, 05:08 PM**

Hi Eric and welcome to the Shack! I have a question for you. Since you stated
""I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.""
Does that mean anyone who has a sub for HT is off track?

**Otto** · **12-11-07, 05:11 PM**

Hi Eric, and welcome to the Shack.

Quote:

I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.

Hmmm. I think many would feel the opposite -- that you can reproduce most music with a good floorstanding speaker (one that'll hit into the 30Hz range). Now, you said you're into organ music, so you're an outlying data point. A sub will definitely serve you well for that type of music. I also use my sub when listening to two-channel music, and my mains will hit 30 Hz.

Quote:

If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget?

Well, most theaters I've been to aren't the greatest for sound. They're likely set up once by the vendor and then they go from there. I've seen them be too loud, unbalanced, and lacking in bass. I generally don't go to the theater anymore, especially since every half-witted teen has a cell phone (not that every teen is half-witted, but the ones that are........).

Quote:

Every HT setup I've heard stinks.

That's too bad. Don't lose faith, though. It's not that hard to pull off correctly, and I don't even think you have to break the bank. In my opinion, good HT is easier to do than good two-channel music.

Quote:

So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer -

Well, for most people just getting into it, I'd recommend the 1124 for bass EQ duties only. I read your other thread, and it appears that there have been a few responses. If you're missing a specific response to a specific question, re-ask it; the people around here are knowledgable and professional about HT and audio in general.

Again, welcome to the Shack!

**tonyvdb** · **12-11-07, 05:27 PM**

Hello Eric, Welcome aboard the Shack.
Wow, your going to start a great debate over that "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT" you know that hey...

Personally I will have to say that a sub is needed in most systems as probably 75% of us don't have speakers that are capable of reproducing the lower frequencies (below 30Hz) that are available in movie and some music soundtracks particularly at volumes well below reference levels.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 05:33 PM**

Quote:

Mike P. wrote:

Hi Eric and welcome to the Shack! I have a question for you. Since you stated
""I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT.""
Does that mean anyone who has a sub for HT is off track?

Not at all - I'm probably "off-track", and I'm on this Forum to find that out! It's only my opinion, and it's not an arbitrary opinion. It's based on the audio I hear at the cinemas, which I think is disgraceful. The audio is incredibly loud, in fact so loud, I can't really determine the quality of it (read degree of distortion), and I don't have a keen ear. Everyone has a perception as to what they consider musical, and if one considers HT (with sub(s)) musical, I'm happy for them (and I'm a little jealous). And if it's not quite musical, they're probably working at making it so. In any event, they're having fun, and that's what life is supposed to be. I intend to have fun too.
As I said in my introductory, my ideas may be off-base, and my goal is to find out if I am. I am open to any criticism, no matter how harsh, because I consider that criticism a "free" lesson in engineering.

Best Regards
Eric G.

I do seem to praddle on, but the long and short of it is

**lcaillo** · **12-11-07, 05:58 PM**

Quote:

tomacco wrote:

I never try to offend anyone, but I don't skate around issues like the metro-men we have today. Get to the point, and be polite.
I've spilled my guts, so now it's time for someone to go for the jugular!

Welcome to the shack. You won't find anyone going for the jugular here. It just is not how we do things. Your post seems intended to attract a debate, and that is a good thing. Some of your opinions seem a bit off-tilt, but as most are, likely based on some truth. You will probably find that there are lots of folks here with lots of differing opinions, and not many who tend to skate around issues. We can discuss, debate, learn, and teach all at the same time that we remain civil. As my Dad used to say, you seem like someone willing to tell "how the cow eats the cabbage." That is fine, just keep it clear what is opinion and what is fact, respect the rights of others to differ, and you will find this is a great place to be.

Hmmm a physicist turned engineer. I expect some interesting discussions are coming...

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 06:13 PM**

Greetings Otto:

I don't know how to use this quote system, so things could go amuck. When I have time, I'll get my 15 yr. old daughter to show me the nuances of this system. In the mean time, you're going to hate this work-around (but remember to keep forgiveness in your heart):

Eric said: "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT."

Otto answered: "Hmmm. I think many would feel the opposite -- that you can reproduce most music with a good floorstanding speaker (one that'll hit into the 30Hz range). Now, you said you're into organ music, so you're an outlying data point. A sub will definitely serve you well for that type of music. I also use my sub when listening to two-channel music, and my mains will hit 30 Hz.

Eric's reply: "To listen to organ music, a speaker is going to have to reproduce 16 Hz (that's what you'll feel, not hear), and the 1st harmonic. Although my speakers do an adequate job of providing enjoyment, I experimented with a sub, and although the sub provided a poor sound (I don't blame the sub), I am now missing something in my life. I am hoping my next sub, reinforced with knowledge and perhaps some electronics (read parametric equalizer) will supplement the lower end, and I'm willing to work at it, and have a lot of fun - I hope."

Eric said: "If the cinemas can't get the audio right, what chance does a consumer on a limited budget?

Otto answered: "Well, most theaters I've been to aren't the greatest for sound. They're likely set up once by the vendor and then they go from there. I've seen them be too loud, unbalanced, and lacking in bass. I generally don't go to the theater anymore, especially since every half-witted teen has a cell phone (not that every teen is half-witted, but the ones that are........).

Eric answered: "Everything that you have stated, describe my complaints exactly. I wish I would have described it like that."

Eric said: "Every HT setup I've heard stinks."

Otto answered: "That's too bad. Don't lose faith, though. It's not that hard to pull off correctly, and I don't even think you have to break the bank. In my opinion, good HT is easier to do than good two-channel music.

Eric answered: "That is VERY encouraging to hear. From everything I've read thus far, I've been given the impression I'm going to have to slay a dragon."

Eric said: "So currently my interest lies in the Behringer products, but after reading volumes of literature, I don't know what to buy initially, to get started - it's all too overwhelming. I posted a question on the Forum, which no one sees fit to answer -"

Otto answered: "Well, for most people just getting into it, I'd recommend the 1124 for bass EQ duties only. I read your other thread, and it appears that there have been a few responses. If you're missing a specific response to a specific question, re-ask it; the people around here are knowledgable and professional about HT and audio in general.

Again, welcome to the Shack!

Eric relied: "I appreciate very much your recommended starting point - seems that's where a lot of people get their 'legs'. And thanks again for the pleasant greeting.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 06:28 PM**

Quote:

tonyvdb wrote:

Hello Eric, Welcome aboard the Shack.
Wow, your going to start a great debate over that "I think there's a place for subs, but thus far, in music only, not HT" you know that hey...

Personally I will have to say that a sub is needed in most systems as probably 75% of us don't have speakers that are capable of reproducing the lower frequencies (below 30Hz) that are available in movie and some music soundtracks particularly at volumes well below reference levels.

tonyvdb: Thanks for your greeting!

Pls. read my answer to Mike P. I think my comments are cogent, and allow me to hold my ground (at least for a little while).

As for the rest of your E-mail, I'm in full agreement. Sometimes I may respond in a contradictory manner, but that's because I have an opinion in the back of my head that's being slowly changed as I learn from the members of this Forum.

I offer no excuses, but that's the way it is.

Thanks again!

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **12-11-07, 06:36 PM**

Quote:

Eric said: "Every HT setup I've heard stinks."

Otto answered: "That's too bad. Don't lose faith, though. It's not that hard to pull off correctly, and I don't even think you have to break the bank. In my opinion, good HT is easier to do than good two-channel music.

Ditto that. It’s not hard to put together a HT system that will blow away most theaters in the sound quality department.

Regards,
Wayne

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 06:59 PM**

Quote:

lcaillo wrote:

Welcome to the shack. You won't find anyone going for the jugular here. It just is not how we do things. Your post seems intended to attract a debate, and that is a good thing. Some of your opinions seem a bit off-tilt, but as most are, likely based on some truth. You will probably find that there are lots of folks here with lots of differing opinions, and not many who tend to skate around issues. We can discuss, debate, learn, and teach all at the same time that we remain civil. As my Dad used to say, you seem like someone willing to tell "how the cow eats the cabbage." That is fine, just keep it clear what is opinion and what is fact, respect the rights of others to differ, and you will find this is a great place to be.

Hmmm a physicist turned engineer. I expect some interesting discussions are coming...

Greetings Icaillo:

"Go for the jugular" was said in jest. I often write in that manner, and it is only meant to be humor. I detest Neanderthals!

My post was not intended to attract debate, but merely to express my uncoloured feelings. If it attracts debate, I will consider my introduction to this Forum as a useful introduction.

If my opinions are off-tilt, it is because I'm in 'learn-mode'. Just the same, I would like to know what those off-tilt opinions are, just to give me a footing in this Forum. If it's just a general comment, don't waste the bandwidth; if it's something you want me to address directly, let's hear it.

I interpreted the following statement as you chastising me, and erecting warning signs to the effect: "Danger Will Robinson, danger Will Robinson; intruder, stay away". I hope that this is just a misperception on my part, and I'm sure it is - I want to clarify things up front. The other part of your statement regarding opinion and fact is very nebulus. Music by its very nature is undefinable in physics as either objective or subjective. I'm sure you know that, it just happened to appear in your Father's quote, but I thought I'd mention it. So all should be wary which boundaries they dare to cross.

"As my Dad used to say, you seem like someone willing to tell "how the cow eats the cabbage." That is fine, just keep it clear what is opinion and what is fact, respect the rights of others to differ, and you will find this is a great place to be."

I am at a loss as to what the following refers to, but if you explain, I'll certainly try to do my part.

"Hmmm a physicist turned engineer. I expect some interesting discussions are coming...
Please help update the Manufacturer and Vendor Reference Information
Send the info to me by email or PM."

Thanks again for the greeting, and I hope we got off on the right foot.

Best Regards
Eric G.

**Sonnie** · **12-11-07, 08:33 PM**

Hi Eric and welcome to the Shack!

Just to be on the safe side, you might want to read the Forum Rules. Your opening post might very well be offensive and disrespectful since in essence you are calling some our members "meat-heads", "suckers", and "stupid-spenders"... their equipment "audio trash"... and some manufacturers "scam" creators.

There are 4 rules that would prohibit much of your first post:

Please be polite, courteous and respectful of other members, as well as all products and services discussed. There is no need to be condescending or overly critical, not everyone will be as smart as the next person. If you can help, please do so, but remember, we all start learning somewhere and none of us are perfect. If you are the home theater, audio or video aficionado king daddy audiophile, we are glad to have you around, but please be humble and considerate to those of less fortunate knowledge.

Personal attacks of any nature are strictly prohibited. These forums are no place for negativity of any kind. We are here to discuss home theater, audio and video related topics. Let's make friends and have fun while doing so... and be different than the typical home theater forum.

We can not emphasize enough the importance of keeping the bickering, arguing, flaming, bashing... "and things like these" ... away from here. Provoking and eliciting threads, posts and links that might create issues are also prohibited. If you and another member (or members) have issues with one another, DO NOT bring those issues to this forum. It will absolutely not be tolerated.

NO bashing of manufacturers and/or products will be tolerated. You may explain that you prefer product A over product B and justify your differences, but do not deliberately bash a product just because you do not like it or just because you had a bad experience with it. Others may own that product and may be offended that you are bashing and trashing their choice of products. If you have a beef with a manufacturer, take it up with them outside of these forums, and/or take the whining and complaining somewhere else. Having a problem with a product and asking for help with it is fine, but do not bash the manufacturer and/or the product while doing so. We do have a Manufacturers Service and Support forum for helping individuals resolve issues, but be sure you read the guidelines for that forum prior to posting.

I certainly believe there is a lot you can learn here... and I look forward to seeing you around.

**Otto** · **12-11-07, 08:52 PM**

Hi again, Eric.

To do the quote thing, just highlight the text you want to quote and then hit the button that looks like this: quote.gif (it's part of the reply/edit window that you type your posts in). You will see the tags that it creates in your edit window. If you want to attribute it to someone, you can type in the name like this: [quote=Otto]. Do that at the opening tag, but not the closing tag, and it will say that I wrote it. There's also a forum to post test messages if you want.

One thing that I forgot in my initial post was to say that I do believe you need a sub for HT. While most listeners can get away without using a sub for music (those that don't listen to organ music, etc.), most HT users do indeed require a sub for the full movie experience. Most speakers (even full-range floorstanders) aren't going to be able to supply the impact from the LFE channel. To really get that .1 channel, a sub is required.

In the end, a sub is good for both movies and music.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 09:13 PM**

Hi Sonnie: Everything I have stated is undoubtedly true, and I have abided by the Forum rules of not mentioning the names of people or manufacturers. I believe that if you or others are in doubt of some of the the Introductory which I have posted, then you are not in touch with the world. Despite my position, I take your point well, and if this type of posting can be construed as offensive, then I apologise to those whom I have offended, and will desist from putting my inflammatory remarks to paper. It is not my intent to verbally insult or defame anyone personally. And as you will quickly see by reading all my other posts (they are few and short), purposeful invective of this nature does not flow in my blood (unless in self-defence), and I consider people of that nature Neanderthals.

These ill words have flowed from trying to have civilised discussions with people (on other Forums) who in short course resort to their vile nature. And I suppose, I gave unwittingly accumulated a few of their traits.

So to summarise, to those I have offended in my Introduction to this Forum, my sincere apologies. I believe what I have written to be truthful, but I shall not state comments of that nature again, should I offend any members. And as an aside, I can very easily see how the tone of the E-mail in question could very easily get out of hand. So you may include me as a great supporter of your Rules (otherwise, I suppose I'd be out).

With Sincerity
Best Regards
Eric G.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 09:22 PM**

Hi Otto: Thanks for that tip - I'm sure it's going to minimize everyone's agony, including mine. There's only so many cut & pastes that one can tolerate.

As for the subs being good for both movies and just plain audio, all the engineers at work have them, and some even claim it's difficult to watch a move without a sub. There's gotta' be something to it, and that's why I'm at this Forum - I gotta' find out for myself, because everything else I've heard has been just plain bad.

Thanks for your help
Best Regards
Eric G.

**Sonnie** · **12-11-07, 09:27 PM**

Thanks for understanding Eric.

Please keep in mind that it's really not a matter of whether I or anyone else thinks your comments are true or false (there will always be differences of opinions)... or even whether you intended anything to be offensive (I would surely hope you were not intending to be offensive.) It all boils down to the fact we simply don't want to offend anyone, hence the Forum Rules. As you eluded to the "other Forums" ... many members come here to escape the offensiveness dominant elsewhere.

I think we will be fine... furthermore, I look forward to you growing old at the Shack.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 09:30 PM**

Quote:

lcaillo wrote:

Welcome to the shack. You won't find anyone going for the jugular here. It just is not how we do things. Your post seems intended to attract a debate, and that is a good thing. Some of your opinions seem a bit off-tilt, but as most are, likely based on some truth. You will probably find that there are lots of folks here with lots of differing opinions, and not many who tend to skate around issues. We can discuss, debate, learn, and teach all at the same time that we remain civil. As my Dad used to say, you seem like someone willing to tell "how the cow eats the cabbage." That is fine, just keep it clear what is opinion and what is fact, respect the rights of others to differ, and you will find this is a great place to be.

Hmmm a physicist turned engineer. I expect some interesting discussions are coming...

Hello: I forgot to add that for me at least, the discussions are interesting enough already. I've got a lot of catch-up to do before I can make a decent contribution. Be prepared for some juvenile questions, but on an engineering level (I hope).

Best Regards
Eric G.

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 09:45 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

Thanks for understanding Eric.

Please keep in mind that it's really not a matter of whether I or anyone else thinks your comments are true or false (there will always be differences of opinions)... or even whether you intended anything to be offensive (I would surely hope you were not intending to be offensive.) It all boils down to the fact we simply don't want to offend anyone, hence the Forum Rules. As you eluded to the "other Forums" ... many members come here to escape the offensiveness dominant elsewhere.

I think we will be fine... furthermore, I look forward to you growing old at the Shack.

Sonnie: Your responses are faster than a speeding bullet (I'll grant you Mach 2). I certainly have no intention of being offensive (this demonstrates how things can be misinterpreted, and hence all your cautionary rules). Being offensive causes epinephrine (adrenalin) to flow to all cells in the body. The cells absorb the adrenalin and reek havoc with the DNA, RNA, and mitochondrial RNA, et al. When the cell reproduces, it is now a mutant, that is to say, probably diseased. Count me out!
If you want to confirm this, don't ask a doctor - they're not generally learned enough in this specialty. If I ever find my references, I'll post them, but then again, what does this have to do with equalizers.
I should have been a politician - I can write about unrelated subjects for hours. Let me rephrase - being able to do such is a much admired skill (just kidding - I sure don't put everyone in the same boat).

**tomacco** · **12-11-07, 10:03 PM**

Hello Wayne: I'm going to concentrate on getting stereo right. I read an interesting paper that stated when the audio engineers invented stereo in the late 50's, they knew it was WRONG. The only reason two channels were used was that was all the information they could put in the groove of an LP. http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

Most of the other guys messing around with HT seem to have a horror story every day. But none of them believe in equalizers. They say it's another piece of electronics in the loop to pervert their "

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