Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 94 Old 05-29-15, 05:21 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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I had hoped to address this, too, but there was just too much stuff to get into our few-hour-exercise. A matter for future consideration.
What do you suggest when the back of the seat is higher than the ears?

Most say you need the mic at least 12" away from the seat back to avoid reflections, are you saying not to do that?

Ears are approx. 6/7" away from the seat back, should one just place the mic there?
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post #22 of 94 Old 05-29-15, 07:02 AM
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Hi rapaolloav. I use a plush blanket over the seat back when doing measurements and cal, and listening (alone). I know a few others here that do too. Not sure if that's what your looking for.
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post #23 of 94 Old 05-29-15, 06:01 PM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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Hi rapaolloav. I use a plush blanket over the seat back when doing measurements and cal, and listening (alone). I know a few others here that do too. Not sure if that's what your looking for.
Yes I do that too but do you also keep the mic exactly where the ears are which would be closer than 12" away from the back of the seat?
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post #24 of 94 Old 05-29-15, 07:00 PM
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Yes, I do. In my brain, this makes the most sense,lol. I may be wrong, but I'm not willing to split the hairs it would take to find a difference.
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post #25 of 94 Old 06-02-15, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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RapalloAV wrote: View Post
What do you suggest when the back of the seat is higher than the ears?

Most say you need the mic at least 12" away from the seat back to avoid reflections, are you saying not to do that?

Ears are approx. 6/7" away from the seat back, should one just place the mic there?
From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.
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post #26 of 94 Old 06-02-15, 11:39 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.

So the only solution is a microphone that looks like headphones that you wear on your head while the testing is performing using two mics that mimic your ears. Two MONO mics a left and right.

ONLY way to do this IMHO.

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post #27 of 94 Old 06-02-15, 11:47 AM
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So the only solution is a microphone that looks like headphones that you wear on your head while the testing is performing using two mics that mimic your ears. Two MONO mics a left and right. ONLY way to do this IMHO.
binaural in head mics maybe?
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post #28 of 94 Old 06-02-15, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

Well..... There is some wisdom in the idea. There are problems with it, too, the main one being measurement repeatability. Also, mic quality, ability of the system to handle two mic inputs gracefully, mic matching, and did I mention measurement repeatability? Then there is the issue of needing near 360 degree exposure of both mics so they can get clean measurements of the surrounds. And there is the shape of the Audyssey mic, and which mic is active for which speaker and and when, and...

I realize you were speaking somewhat generically, and again, I agree with your logic in principal, but there ARE complications.

Dirac Live seems to have solved the problem. The review of the nanoAVR DL looks at the question specifically. The first mic position needs to be at LP Center, and handles all the timing and L/R frequency response matching needs, and the other mic positions can be randomly spaced around the seat area (no symmetry or careful spacing required) and their "average" gives the proper frequency response profile. Easy as pie and gives superb, no-compromise results. Seriously, works like a dream, satisfies the critical needs of the LP and helps you minimally compromise overall FR if you wish to accommodate other seat positions.
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post #29 of 94 Old 06-04-15, 03:05 PM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.
Wayne I too have experimented many many times, writing everything down and always getting better to worse results.

Can you elaborate a bit on why you like just ONE measurement more than 3/4 or more please, Im very interested in your thoughts?

What I find with all my experiments is actually the bass seems cleaner for me with just one measurement then audyssey turned OFF!

I find every time no matter what positions I test for XT32, when I engage it the treble is too bright for my likings and the bass is coloured or distorted someway. I will try to explain.... With EQ engaged the bass notes seem to be extended and run for longer than what they should, which makes the bass sound wrong... Without EQ the bass notes stop BANG in their tracks, none of the extension, no distortion, its clean, big and smooth in all 12 seats...

I keep trying to use EQ as it almost seems like a religion that one should follow, but still after hundreds and hundreds of EQs, reading every forum on the planet about Audyssey I cant get it to sound good in my cinema!

Do you think this is true for some rooms?
I use it in my lounge room that's furnished with the normal things and its fine, better on...
My cinema is a very different room with lots of bass trapping, and acoustic treatments. Seems od that a room that's more perfect for acoustics should sound worse with it on than off... When a lounge room with normal acoustics should sound better with EQ turned on...

Interested in your thoughts????
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post #30 of 94 Old 06-06-15, 03:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

Audyssey XT32 (without Pro Kit) vs Dirac Live End User Experience Comparison Summary of Audible Characteristics
  • Audyssey has two target curves available, only slightly different in sound. Users are forced to use external EQ in addition to Audyssey to get the sound they want if they are not happy with the stock target curves. Dirac Live makes virtually any desired tailored sound available through its highly customizable target curves, which can be applied to a single channel or to a channel group.
  • Dirac Live makes use of mixed-phase filtering. Low frequencies are corrected by minimum-phase filters which can be much more focused and correct LF response problems more effectively than Audyssey's all-FIR filtering system.
  • Audyssey is integrated with the AVR, which would seem to be ideal, but the reality is that AVR settings often have been changed improperly after an Audyssey calibration, affecting the sound negatively, and must be thoroughly checked and corrected after each Audyssey calibration. By remaining independent of the AVR's speaker settings, Dirac Live frees the end user from needing to recheck those settings.
  • The Audyssey correction algorithm puts the priority on frequency response averaging. Getting a decent soundstage and imaging (SS&I) result requires use of a single-mic-position calibration, with questionable frequency response, or a tight, carefully measured, symmetrical pattern focused on the LP. Dirac Live appears to use the first measurement at the LP as reference for all frequency response matching of speakers and for all timing information which is critical to soundstage and imaging. As a result, strong SS&I at the LP occurs with every calibration, and the remaining calibration measurement points can be randomly chosen, their primary function being to give the overall frequency response profile. Dirac Live gives repeatable and highly satisfactory results very easily from every calibration.
  • Where Audyssey users have developed complex processes to help them get desired results, Dirac Live gives desired results much more predictably and easily.





RapalloAV:

To answer your question directly, the single mic position calibration will give the best soundstage and imaging results. Using more mic positions, tightly spaced and carefully place for symmetry, gives better frequency response, but this gets more complicated, tedious, and hard to repeat.

Your bass problems could be from modal issues that are being boosted by Audyssey, causing ringing and distortion. That kind of thing varies immensely from room to room. You mentioned treatment and bass trapping, but really effective bass treatment is difficult, and without custom-designed traps for the modes in your room, the trapping you have might not be doing much for you at the frequencies where you need it.

Your issues with the high frequencies are most likely centered on the general brightness of Audysseys target curves, along with the acoustics around your seating. If your mic calibration pattern happens to catch an area with lowered high frequencies, Audyssey will correct and give hotter higher frequencies. Better high frequency response would come from using a more spread calibration pattern, at the expense of SS&I.

Treating a room, as you have, without designing the treatment specifically to address the measured acoustical problems in the room, can mislead you into the exact frustration you are experiencing. That is not usually the case, but it is certainly very possible. That possibility, along with the possibility of your calibration pattern just happens to catch another unlucky break along a way and has Audyssey emphasizing high frequencies... well, it is just not your lucky day. This is conjecture based upon minimal information.
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