Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison - Page 7 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #61 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 06:15 AM
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Isn't that exactly the point of having user-adjustable target curves? That you can adjust them to your own preference? This is a big step up from Audyssey where the target curve they prefer is the one you are forced to use, even if your own preference is somewhat different.
Sorry, should have been more clear: I was referring to a customized version of the triangle-hypotenuse mic location pattern, not house curves. Sent from my iPad using HTShack

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post #62 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 06:23 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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Sorry, should have been more clear: I was referring to a customized version of the triangle-hypotenuse mic location pattern, not house curves. Sent from my iPad using HTShack
Ah, OK. Sorry for misunderstanding. I am currently using a random mic placement pattern, recommended by Flavio of Dirac. First position is at MLP of course and the other 8 positions are 'random' around the listening area (which is a single person environment for me). Of the 8, some are higher than MLP, some lower. This has worked very well for me, but then so did the 'regular' pattern described in the Dirac Live user manual.
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post #63 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 06:45 AM
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I am currently using a random mic placement pattern, recommended by Flavio of Dirac. First position is at MLP of course and the other 8 positions are 'random' around the listening area (which is a single person environment for me). Of the 8, some are higher than MLP, some lower. This has worked very well for me, but then so did the 'regular' pattern described in the Dirac Live user manual.
No problem! Do you know if Flavio's recommendation matches the mic pattern shown in the software? For example, do you know if it matters if you do upper left mic location before lower right mic location; or does he recommend following all the mic locations in the same specific order?

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post #64 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 07:29 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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No problem! Do you know if Flavio's recommendation matches the mic pattern shown in the software? For example, do you know if it matters if you do upper left mic location before lower right mic location; or does he recommend following all the mic locations in the same specific order?

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The order of the mic positions after the first is irrelevant - do them in any order that is convenient. Flavio's suggested mic positioning is slightly different to the pattern shown in the app, which uses a regular placement of 4 high and 4 low (relative to MLP No1 position).

Here are Flavio's suggested positions:



As you can, basically he has moved two of the upper tier and two of the lower tier positions away from the corners. I think this demonstrates that precise positioning is not needed, and I personally don't slavishly follow Flavio but use a pattern 'in the spirit' of his. So long as you get good coverage through the listening area, you are good to go.
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post #65 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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kbarnes70 wrote: View Post
Isn't that exactly the point of having user-adjustable target curves? That you can adjust them to your own preference? This is a big step up from Audyssey where the target curve they prefer is the one you are forced to use, even if your own preference is somewhat different.
I tend to agree. Dirac easily gives me the soundstage & imaging, I throw my favored target curve onto that, and Voila!

A key seems to be the size of the mic pattern. Big enough, but not too big. My experience has been:
  • If soundstage and imaging are weird, a bigger, more random mic pattern is needed.
  • If frequency response pre-optimization is too wild, indicating it will vary a lot over the listening area, a smaller mic pattern is needed.
About a 3-foot radius for two-channel has given me great results.
Trying to optimize more than three adjacent seats for home theater seems to be too much.
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post #66 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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kbarnes70 wrote: View Post
The order of the mic positions after the first is irrelevant - do them in any order that is convenient. Flavio's suggested mic positioning is slightly different to the pattern shown in the app, which uses a regular placement of 4 high and 4 low (relative to MLP No1 position).

Here are Flavio's suggested positions:



As you can, basically he has moved two of the upper tier and two of the lower tier positions away from the corners. I think this demonstrates that precise positioning is not needed, and I personally don't slavishly follow Flavio but use a pattern 'in the spirit' of his. So long as you get good coverage through the listening area, you are good to go.
I concur completely. My understanding of this is the diagrams are intended as examples to give the idea what kind of coverage tends to work. Flavio has also suggested "randomizing" the pattern, which is what I do with great success. The order after the first measurement makes no difference.

Part of the reason for showing a specific pattern and order is that some users want nothing left to chance, want to be told EXACTLY how to do it, so Dirac/miniDSP would get bugged to death if they didn't show a pretty specific approach, even though there is actually a lot of leeway allowable.
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post #67 of 94 Old 07-21-15, 07:07 PM
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kbarnes70 wrote: View Post
The order of the mic positions after the first is irrelevant - do them in any order that is convenient.
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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
I concur completely. My understanding of this is the diagrams are intended as examples to give the idea what kind of coverage tends to work. Flavio has also suggested "randomizing" the pattern, which is what I do with great success. The order after the first measurement makes no difference. Part of the reason for showing a specific pattern and order is that some users want nothing left to chance, want to be told EXACTLY how to do it, so Dirac/miniDSP would get bugged to death if they didn't show a pretty specific approach, even though there is actually a lot of leeway allowable.
Thank you both. It all makes so much more sense now! Some people need boundaries. They will get very good results. Some people like to think they don't need boundaries. They're the ones that will still get very good results despite themselves. Then there's the rest who don't think about boundaries, and wind up setting them for the other two factions. And don't forget the software itself. Dirac Live room correction is an accomplishment to be proud of!

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post #68 of 94 Old 07-22-15, 06:49 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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I tend to agree. Dirac easily gives me the soundstage & imaging, I throw my favored target curve onto that, and Voila!

A key seems to be the size of the mic pattern. Big enough, but not too big. My experience has been:
  • If soundstage and imaging are weird, a bigger, more random mic pattern is needed.
  • If frequency response pre-optimization is too wild, indicating it will vary a lot over the listening area, a smaller mic pattern is needed.
About a 3-foot radius for two-channel has given me great results.
Trying to optimize more than three adjacent seats for home theater seems to be too much.
I use a random mic pattern similar to Flavio's and my mic positions are spread over about a 3 to 4 foot area. Although my use is for HT specifically, I am only concerned with optimising one seat and this pattern seems to work very well for that, confirming your own experience.
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post #69 of 94 Old 10-27-15, 12:49 PM
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"SS&I are not directly measurable. There are those who will argue that because of this fact they do not exist, and therefore are not worth pursuing." And they would be right. If you can't measure it, you can't hear it, end of story.

What you are likely experiencing is a combination of time alignment, harmonics, directionality, reflections, etc. all of which can be measured. To make up a term and say it can't be measured but it's there is totally bogus.
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post #70 of 94 Old 10-28-15, 06:45 AM
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Re: Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac Live Listening Comparison

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grandpixel wrote: View Post
"SS&I are not directly measurable.
For now.

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grandpixel wrote: View Post
There are those who will argue that because of this fact they do not exist, and therefore are not worth pursuing." And they would be right. If you can't measure it, you can't hear it, end of story.
Opinion & Ostrich Syndrome (OO&S). Not fact. Using your logic, we'd still be listening in mono and sound waves wouldn't have existed before corresponding experiments proved otherwise. If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? There are those who would argue "no", because there's no one around to hear it. Then there are those who would argue "yes", because the tree striking the ground creates an outwardly-expanding change in atmospheric pressure that can be measured. It's a trick philosophical question based on science. Both sides of the equation are correct. So if a person can't hear - or chooses not to hear - an acoustic phenomenon based on physics (sound reproduction) and psychoacoustics (sound interpretation), then it's my opinion that particular person suffers from OO&S.

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grandpixel wrote: View Post
What you are likely experiencing is a combination of time alignment, harmonics, directionality, reflections, etc. all of which can be measured.
And don't forget recording techniques purposely utilized to create and enhance SS&I (Soundstage and Imaging)! Do the math. Why would recording engineers manipulate instrument size and positions across a soundstage if they didn't exist? SS&I is not something you have to strain to hear in a properly set up system. If it's in the recording, it's blatantly obvious during playback. Period. End of story.

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grandpixel wrote: View Post
To make up a term and say it can't be measured but it's there is totally bogus.
SS&I is referenced extensively in audio and acoustic circles. A quick Google search will serve as verification. Use the search term "soundstage and imaging" (between quotes).
OO&S (Opinion & Ostrich Syndrome) is a term I made up. It also can't be measured, but it's still out there!

MORAL OF THE STORY:
If you can't measure it and can't hear it, try setting it up properly and listen!
If you can't measure it but can hear it, you've measured the wrong thing!
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Last edited by Lumen; 10-28-15 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Disembarked Bouncy Bus Before Completion
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