Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 30 Old 06-16-15, 07:10 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

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The techniques above are "best can do" with high-backed chair, at least the best I can come up with, and are pretty good, but a low back is better, no doubt about it.

What we need is a chair with a shoulder-high back and a narrow extension with a small cupped headrest, like on some dentist chairs, so you can lean back totally relaxed and the head does not roll to either side, yet it is all behind the head, not sticking out at all behind the ears, not causing sonic disruptions. And it needs to be easily removable for when we are taking measurements and setting up.
You did a brilliant job here Wayne of quantifying the issue at hand. I had never thought of going through these projections scientifically, maybe that is why few believe it is real. Thank You for taking on this endeavor. I do need to learn the power of the REW, it seems a complex program when starting out.

Oh and the chain that works best is a barber chair

Good Listening

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post #12 of 30 Old 06-17-15, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

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You did a brilliant job here Wayne of quantifying the issue at hand. I had never thought of going through these projections scientifically, maybe that is why few believe it is real. Thank You for taking on this endeavor. I do need to learn the power of the REW, it seems a complex program when starting out.

Oh and the chain that works best is a barber chair
Thanks, Jack. REW is not without its learning curve, but the rewards are great!
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post #13 of 30 Old 06-21-15, 08:11 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

Hope to try this today & measure xt32 in the LPC. One question. I am tall & my ears are near the top of the high back chair about 2 inches below the top of the chair back. For the 2nd measurement where do I place the mic ie 2 inches above ear postion or a higher postion?

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post #14 of 30 Old 06-24-15, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

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Dwight Angus wrote: View Post
Hope to try this today & measure xt32 in the LPC. One question. I am tall & my ears are near the top of the high back chair about 2 inches below the top of the chair back. For the 2nd measurement where do I place the mic ie 2 inches above ear postion or a higher postion?
Sorry, I thought I had answered this.

I would go higher, but no more than 12 inches above LPC. And keep all measurements above the LPC level. I tried taking some measurements lower than that, and there is more and more variation as you go down.

Your height is in your favor. The LPC measurement is critical, but the higher it is (the taller you are) the more it rises above the messiness around chair surfaces. Going higher is better, it captures and includes info around the head area, but more than 12" away it is no longer representative of the LP area as far as SS&I with Audyssey is concerned.
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post #15 of 30 Old 06-27-15, 09:44 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

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With Dirac Live, it is always better to use multiple mic positions and is very easy because precision placement and careful physical measurements are not necessary.
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Except where noted, the following discussion is for Audyssey calibration.
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the third calibration started at LPC and after that was similar to the second calibration, but the FR (no MMM was done) ended up very light in the bass frequencies, and still rough through the midrange. Imaging and soundstage again were quite good.
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The fourth and final calibration finally got the right combination of factors involved.



The convenience of this method was that the small mic stand in use, sitting on the seat of the chair, was set up so that the 2nd through 8th positions simply involved sliding the telescoping boom of the stand without moving any other angles or settings. That made it very easy to finish the rest of the measurements without a tape measure or any precise physical measurements of microphone position. The MMM average FR result is shown in the final diagram, which is very flat and sounded very good. Soundstage and imaging (SS&I) were both very good and the FR was smooth and enjoyable. The high bass amount could easily have been tailored by changing subwoofer level and the small dip just above 100 Hz could probably have been alleviated with a subwoofer positioning or delay setting change.
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Beyond that, the main requirements for getting good results are that:
  • the first measurement is at LPC, even though we know there are disturbances there and often no line-of-sight to surrounds, as there is important data needed at that position for the room correction program to get best performance from the front main speakers
  • the remaining measurement positions, all in the center plane, should be different distances from the chair back
  • all within one foot of LPC, if possible, although line-of-sight to surrounds is important for these measurements. With Audyssey, measurement points farther than 12 inches from LPC give compromised FR and softened, imprecise SS&I, so are only useful if smoothed FR across several seats is the goal.
The method described above, sliding the telescoping boom along the hypotenuse of the right triangle described, makes it very easy to accomplish this without any further physical measurements.
Like yourself and others, my Dirac results have sometimes yielded mediocre to objectionable sound quality. The two biggest disappointments have been in the anemic bass and distorted mid-range arenas. In my experience, these "shortcomings" are alleviated somewhat by tighter mic spacing for the random positions. I've had better luck and satisfaction keeping the mic positions away from lower positions near armrests or seat cushions. I do allow some of the random mic locations to get quite close to the seat back, as that is where my ears rest during performances. Those calibrations deliver improved balance between overall FR and bass content while maintaining SS&I (as you already said). And bass can always be tweaked using AVR tone controls or by bumping up the house curve.

I'm currently auditioning subs so can't introduce another variable at this time, but definitely plan on exploring your triangle technique. On a similar note, I've already begun to experiment with above-the-seat-back mic positions as described in Post #44 by kbarnes70 of your Audyssey vs Dirac thread. It yielded wonderful results for surround effects, but Dirac still (but not always) introduces midrange distortion and robs the bottom end. I believe with some more experimentation and practice, I'll be able to properly dial it all in, with many thanks to your keen insights.

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post #16 of 30 Old 06-27-15, 11:01 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

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I told ya Wayne, the sound and image smear considerably when seated in a higher back chair, especially a well padded one. The results are similar to defocusing a camera to show a slightly blurred image that does not quite gel onto the film plane. Just moving from the back of the chair about 12" does help but does not ameliorate the problem fully. Using a low back chair that comes to rest just below the plane wherein the head meets the neck is a good place to start.

Allowing the sound to develop in front, to the sides of and behind the head/ear interface will tend to smother that sonics wherein they seem to be the most important for being able to form a sonic image in ones head...if that makes sense. When we go to a live concert say at Orchestra Hall in Chicago, we do not sit in easy chairs and no self respecting composer would ever think of allowing that as so much of the music and sonic landscape would go un noticed. My opinion anyway.
My uncle would agree. He had a 3 seat couch that he use to use for his listening and has since moved to a regular ol' computer chair that is a midback type. The top of that computer chair goes to his shoulder blades so his entire tops of his shoulders and his head stick up into the room.

Obviously there is a compromise to comfort and perfect setup for listening and then when it applies to movies more often comfort takes the main priority.

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post #17 of 30 Old 08-07-15, 04:25 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

Thanks for conducting these trials and posting the info! I had previously tried the suggested 101 pattern in the Audyssey thread and felt my results were improved over the standard Audyssey pattern. Later I tried the original single mic position setup and felt it was better still.

Now with a bit of spare time this week I gave the triangle method a go on both my Denon AVR2809 (Audyssey XT) and B&W system and my Yamaha RX-V1900 (YPAO) and JBL System. In both these rooms I have high back lounges where the main listening position is. I used folded blankets on the seat backs and paid careful attention to the microphone positioning, initially running single point measurements fine tuning mic position until equal spacing from the front left and right speakers and getting the resultant sub trim level to be at 0dB. Then I ran the 8 point measurement with 3 at MLP (6 inches from the seat back) and then the 1 foot above, and the remainder on the hypotenuse with the last at 1 foot forward of the original position as suggested. The result- great! It is the best sounding Audyssey result I have achieved.

The Denon system is used for watching TV and some movies as well as music and radio. So far for general TV watching I am happy with the sound using generally Pro Logic II, Audyssey and Dynamic EQ. For music I typically use a 2.1 configuration and prefer Audyssey Bypass L&R with Dynamic EQ for the sub. The difference between Audyssey on and Bypass is the smallest I have achieved and subtle however I prefer the sound of the two main speakers without the Audyssey corrections for music.

I have yet to try much listening on the Yamaha system but with a couple of quick samples I thought the result was also the best I have achieved.

This website has now sparked my interest in REW so as soon as I get a microphone and some time I'll start learning some more and tweak my systems further to try and get the most out of them I can.

Thanks again!
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post #18 of 30 Old 08-08-15, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

Glad to hear you are getting good results. Appreciate the feedback.
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post #19 of 30 Old 04-13-17, 06:45 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

Hello Guys,
I came across this two page thread by accident looking for some mic positions for Audy XT 32 with SUB EQ. I was just wondering if this method is still valid today as it was written a while ago and if anyone might have some suggestions for me I'd be all ears. Wayne you need to clean some of your PMs out as you can't receive any more PMs until you do, it's all filled up.

Thanks guys, I look forward to your replies from this old thread about using the right angle and mic movements forming the hypotenuse of the angle.
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post #20 of 30 Old 10-28-17, 07:40 AM
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Re: Data Supporting a Single Setup Mic Position for Audyssey or Dirac Live

I've been a long time Audyssey user and seems like I am constantly tweaking things. Finally gave this mic placement a try and sure glad I did. I love it it so far, at least until the tweak bug catches me again! Thanks for all the great info.

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