Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #1 of 14 Old 01-17-17, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
Shackster
 
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Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Dear experts,

I’m trying to calibrate with my Umix-1 that Denon AV, and I need your knowledge to understand what I’m doing wrong

The issue is that the audissey calibration is WAY better than mine (), and even the “flat” setting, created with the audissey, sound better
Delay and SPL were both fine from the audissey result, checked with REW

So, after hours of desperation, I copy the “flat” EQ result to the digital EQ, and here something strange happens, IMHO: in my understanding, the Audissey flat and the EQ copy should sound the same, because it’s a copy/paste… in reality, the Audissey flat was again WAY better than its own copy

Below the FR measured at listening position, mic at 90deg with the right calibration file

Audissey vs Flat Audissey

Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1-1.jpg

Audiseey flat vs manual set up

Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1-2.jpg

Manual set up

Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1-3.jpg

Could you please help me in understand where I’m wrong, as well as review my FR and support me in how to improve?
The amp was set in Multi-ch all the time, for a 4.0 system with B&O tower speakers

Thanks in advance for your help!!
Cheers
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post #2 of 14 Old 01-17-17, 11:43 AM
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Wayne Myers
 
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Quote:
stonemarten wrote: View Post
...So, after hours of desperation, I copy the “flat” EQ result to the digital EQ...
Sorry, need a little more explanation here. "copy the flat EQ result," where does this reside and in what form, where to and in what form? I'm afraid I am not quite following you on this step.

Quote:
...and here something strange happens, IMHO: in my understanding, the Audissey flat and the EQ copy should sound the same, because it’s a copy/paste… in reality, the Audissey flat was again WAY better than its own copy
This second part will probably make more sense to me once my first questions have been answered. "EQ copy and paste?"

Quote:
Below the FR measured at listening position, mic at 90deg with the right calibration file

.....

Could you please help me in understand where I’m wrong, as well as review my FR and support me in how to improve?
The amp was set in Multi-ch all the time, for a 4.0 system with B&O tower speakers
About all I can say at this point is that it is clear that they will sound different. Afraid I can give no explanation without knowing more about the circumstances.
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post #3 of 14 Old 01-17-17, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

AudiocRaver,

thanks for your answer

copy/paste operation: in the Manual EQ setting in the AV, there is an option called "copy Audissey Flat EQ setting to EQ", where it's supposed to paste the Audissey Flat EQ setting to the manual EQ (and it did because all the sliders moved away from zero) as reference and starting point for a manual EQ optimization

in theory they should sound exactly the same, but in the reality they were very different, and the Audissey Flat EQ setting (automatic not the one copied) was better than its own copy to the manual EQ

I hope that the explanation helps you in understanding better where I'm struggling, please let me know if I need to be clearer

what do you think about the FR?

cheers
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post #4 of 14 Old 01-18-17, 01:28 PM
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

One problem is that the graphic equalizer provided in D+M equipment is very crude. As you've discovered, copying the results of an Audyssey calibration into it does not result in the same frequency response as is provided by the Audyssey filters.

The proprietary filtration algorithm used by Audyssey is much more sophisticated than can be provided by either graphic or parametric equalizers, although the latter often can produce quite good results.

Unfortunately, it isn't obvious to me what you're actually trying to accomplish.

Audyssey doesn't provide any significant adjustments in what's provided in the receiver. Some adjustments are possible if you're willing to spend another $700 or so on an Audyssey Pro license and its Windows software.
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post #5 of 14 Old 01-18-17, 10:42 PM
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Ah, thanks for the explanatiion, and thanks to selden for additional clarity.

As selden answered, the msnual EQ is a different type of equalizer. It gives the ability to vary the result, but only a fraction of the granularity. AUDYSSEY (XT32) provides thousands of filter points, compared to a handful for the manual EQ, and the crude copy-paste function simplifies the data to the form suitable for the manual EQ. The result will be quite different.
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post #6 of 14 Old 01-18-17, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Dear all,

thanks for the answers, very clear now

what I was trying to accomplish was to get a better response and remove some of the "bumps" in the FR... it's a pricey system (for my pocket ) and I would like to get the best out of it

So the only solution is some MiniDSP or similar? but the MiniDSP room correction hardware is only at 96kHz instead of 192kHz: do you have any recommendation here?

thanks!

cheers
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post #7 of 14 Old 01-19-17, 04:53 PM
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

I didn't think Audyssey was at 192k either. May be worth a call to Denon to confirm. By the way, exact same issue with Yamaha and YPAO with respect to copying to manual PEQ filters.

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...m-eq-interview
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post #8 of 14 Old 01-19-17, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Thanks John! Happy to see that wasn't user error

Sorry I wasn't clear again: if I add a room correction hardware (like dirac live from miniDSP or any other parametric EQ) what's your recommendation? The MiniDSP one is not at 192 internal sampling
Or do I need to stuck with Audiseey and get the result I get today?

Thanks for your recommendation!

cheers
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post #9 of 14 Old 01-20-17, 10:40 AM
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Quote:
stonemarten wrote: View Post
Thanks John! Happy to see that wasn't user error

Sorry I wasn't clear again: if I add a room correction hardware (like dirac live from miniDSP or any other parametric EQ) what's your recommendation? The MiniDSP one is not at 192 internal sampling
Or do I need to stuck with Audiseey and get the result I get today?

Thanks for your recommendation!

cheers
Not sure which miniDSP unit you are looking at. Their 2-channel Dirac Live model is the DDRC-22A or D, depending on analog or digital I/O, or DA for D in A out. Internal processing is at 96 kHz, and all standard sample rates are supported but are resampled to 96 kHz. Sound quality is very very very good. I have just spent the last 2 weeks listening with my DDRC-22D while completing a speaker review.

I honestly cannot imagine why one would need a higher sample rate. My opinion: I have miniDSP units that run at 48 kHz and others at 96 kHz. I have never heard anything that said the 96 kHz is better. I LIKE THE IDEA of the 96 kHz rate and would choose it given the option. But could never justify it on sonic improvement alone if I had to. A sample rate of 192 vs 96 again I like the idea of the higher sample rate, but can not justify it, and think it would be folly (my opinion ) to insist on 192 as being the only acceptable option.

Dirac vs. Audyssey: my opinion and that of anyone I know who has given a serious listen to both is that Dirac Live is superior, hands down the better choice. If you are considering Dirac as an option, I STRONGLY recommend it is time to make the Audyssey > Dirac switch now. You will never go back.
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post #10 of 14 Old 01-20-17, 01:14 PM
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Re: Denon AVR-x4200w calibration with REW and Umix-1

Ditto to AudioCraver's comments.
I would add if you would like Dirac for 2 channel then one of models AudioCraver cited will work well. If your thought was multichannel with your Atmos capable AVR then there will be some limitations to consider depending on your sources, signal chain and desires.
You can download a free demo of DiracLive from Dirac's website if you want to hear and measure what it will do. I believe the PC based version does generate 24/192 filters if that is a critical concern for you. If a PC/Laptop is your primary source it may be a good choice too over the minidsp implementations.
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