Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
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post #21 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 01:43 AM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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sdurani wrote: View Post
I'll be the heretic and give an alternate view.

I haven't found much content, and certainly nothing critical, between 80Hz and 120Hz in the LFE channel. Maybe some re-recording engineers are rolling off above 80Hz because it fits with the THX spec, maybe because commercial theatre speakers go down to 40-50Hz; who knows.

With that in mind, I set the low pass filter of the LFE channel where I cross over to my main speakers (80Hz). The main reason for this is because I want a single blend point from subs to speakers. So if I get the blend just right at 80Hz, then want all the content from my subwoofers rolling off at that point, not some of it rolling off at 80Hz and some of it rolling off at 120Hz. Besides, at that high a frequency, most subwoofers I've heard start to become localizable.
Ive tried both but I find if I set it at 120Hz the bass is BIGGER & DEEPER why is this?
When I go back to 80Hz the punch and life goes out of the subs....
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post #22 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 02:38 AM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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RapalloAV wrote: View Post
Ive tried both but I find if I set it at 120Hz the bass is BIGGER & DEEPER why is this?
It's not "deeper" in the way most people use that term (lower in frequency), but it is bigger/louder simply because you're reproducing more bass (content from 80Hz to 120Hz).
Quote:
RapalloAV wrote: View Post
When I go back to 80Hz the punch and life goes out of the subs....
That's mid-bass punch. I get enough of that from my speakers so I don't need it from my subs as well. YMMV.

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post #23 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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swingin wrote: View Post
Are you saying I should set my 3 SVS subs X-overs to 125? With my speakers set to 40? Im confused, but if thats the way it should be done, then I'm sure going to give it a try..
This is a confusing area, all the bass management and speaker setup variables. And I suspect that there may be differences in how AVR manufacturers handle it.

Here is what I found with the Onkyo TX-NR1009 receiver I worked with. And I just rechecked it to be sure. Any manually-entered speaker settings will always be over-ridden by the MultEQ Setup Sequence. I could set crossover points and sizes and distances, and MultEQ would ignore them and come up with its own settings every time, no way to just make it use your own settings. So MultEQ''s calculations and frequency response (FR) corrections are all done with its own crossover settings in mind.

You always have the option of changing those settings later to whatever you want. Just remember that the interaction of the speakers changes somewhat and MultEQ's correction will be affected. How much is anyone's guess. It hurts nothing to try it, you can switch them right back to AMEQ's settings without having to re-run the whole setup.

This is a minor (???} hole in the way AVRs and AMEQ work together. It would be good to have the option to have AMEQ use your manual settings, and some AVRs may allow it, but this is a nice, recent, upper-end model by Ohkyo and so I am guessing that most AVRs work the way this one does.

There may be enough to be gained in a specific situation to warrant changing those settings back to the way you want them, and in many cases - especially if the affected frequency range is pretty smooth for all your speakers - you may get exactly what you want, having the subs do the heavy lifting below 80 Hz, etc. There are enough variables that it will be hard to predict - it is a tricky range to get everything working together right.

So try it and see. If it sounds the same, then you have probably not upset AMEQ's FR curve and all should be fine - your improvement will be in terms of cleaner sound because your monster subs are letting your mains and surrounds take it easier in the LF range. If it sounds different - remember that if you can hear a difference easily it is probably a BIG difference - then the change has had a significant impact on the AMEQ tuning. That's the best you can know without breaking out measurement equipment to verify.

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swingin wrote: View Post
Are you saying I should set my 3 SVS subs X-overs to 125? With my speakers set to 40? Im confused, but if thats the way it should be done, then I'm sure going to give it a try..
So back to your questions (I got rambly): setting the sub X-overs to 125 simply allows AMEQ to pick the best X-over frequency itself. It is a little puzzling that MultEQ seems designed to do the opposite of what we are usually recommended to do when setting up our speakers. The common advice to set the sub X-over high - usually 80 Hz - and take some burden off of the mains seems like a good strategy to me and much of the AV community. But AMEQ seems consistently to do the opposite - use the lowest X-over point the mains allow and set the sub(s) to work less in their higher range. And if smaller surrounds don't go that low, a gap is left in their lower range - although it is arguable how much LF material goes to surrounds anyway. As I said above, this is what I have seen and heard from others, but there may be variations in the way this is handled in different AVR designs.

I can think of no pro or con in setting the sub X-over lower. As primetimeguy suggests, leaving it set high gets it out of the way, and I agree it is the best default approach. Some users do lower it intentionally to steepen the LP filtering at the X-over, but usually have measurement equipment to veryify the goodness of the result.

Quote:
primetimeguy wrote:
Technically Audyssey does not set your crossovers, your receiver does. Audyssey simple reports the -3db point to the receiver and the manufacturer decides what to do from their. Personally I would recommend adjusting all speakers to small and 80hz crossover for all speakers.
Again, there is good reason to change those settings if it seems not to upset the EQ result. If it sounds different enough FR-wise that you can hear it, then your LF response is being messed with in a significant way by that change. Just beware.

Quote:
Question on the LFE in the AVR, would I keep that on 80Hz, or should I raise that to, the max I have is 120Hz?
Raising the LFE value in the AVR to 120 - assuming mains LF point left at 40, for instance - has both the mains and sub working the range from 40 to 120, almost sure to be a major disruption of FR through that range. One of the main purposes of a crossover point is to keep driver interaction to a minimum. I would expect the best results from A) leaving the settings the way AMEQ set them; or B) possibly, if FR seems not to be disrupted, changing the X-over settings for sub and all speakers to 60 or 80 Hz, as seems best for your speakers, as long as the FR in that range seems not to be disrupted.

Some surrounds are smaller with LF cutoffs at 120, 150, even 180 Hz. Setting the LFE X-over at 80 leaves a gap with them. In practical listening terms, that response gap for the surrounds is probably less disrupting to the sound with most material than the negative interaction with the larger front mains would be if the LFE X-over is moved higher. IMO.

Quote:
sdurani wrote:
: I haven't found much content, and certainly nothing critical, between 80Hz and 120Hz in the LFE channel. Maybe some re-recording engineers are rolling off above 80Hz because it fits with the THX spec, maybe because commercial theatre speakers go down to 40-50Hz; who knows.

With that in mind, I set the low pass filter of the LFE channel where I cross over to my main speakers (80Hz). The main reason for this is because I want a single blend point from subs to speakers. So if I get the blend just right at 80Hz, then want all the content from my subwoofers rolling off at that point, not some of it rolling off at 80Hz and some of it rolling off at 120Hz. Besides, at that high a frequency, most subwoofers I've heard start to become localizable.
Sanjay put it so much better than I could. Nice explanation, agree with every word.

Quote:
Ive tried both but I find if I set it at 120Hz the bass is BIGGER & DEEPER why is this?
When I go back to 80Hz the punch and life goes out of the subs....
I suspect you are getting some serious interaction between mains and subs in that range where they are both active, and if you were to look at it with measurement equipment, it is almost guaranteed not to be smooth or well controlled.

If you want more bass, a much better way to get it is leave MultEQ's settings so they are giving you smooth low-frequency response, then boost it with your AVR's tone controls. A gold old LF shelf "Bass" control should give a fairly well controlled result.

Last edited by AudiocRaver; 07-11-13 at 04:48 AM.
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post #24 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 06:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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RapalloAV wrote: View Post
Can you take a look at my room and offer advise please. I have three rows of four seats over risers. The back row is always my problem as we all know with seats close to the back wall..... Ive since made bass traps all round the back row which has helped to an extent but Ive exhausted that area now. My middle row is the most important, then the back row and the front last. The ear height on the seat is at the top where the two buttons are, so the back of the seat is above the head.

Is there a mic pattern you would recommend for me here please that I can try?

I have done hundreds of trial runs, sometimes ok sometimes TERRIBLE! When they are terrible I get a shocking ringing (if that's the right word) in the back row on long low notes of music. Some mic results reduce this....

Im just trying to settle on a mic pattern that will produce acceptable results.
That is one beautiful theater. Unfortunately, it has walls, and a ceiling! Whatchagonnado?

Sounds like you have done what you can treatment-wise. Interesting that you prioritize the middle row the highest. Seems like that should help some. The question for mic patterns, the way I see it, is always: from the PLP, how much variation is there to the other seats? I would really like to hear what results you get just by trying out - just to see how it sounds - the 8-Point Basic Setup Mic pattern at the PLP, your main seat - go through the first 4 steps of the Room EQ Process, and see how good the PLP can sound at its very best. And how the other seats sound relative to it. I wonder if you might end up finding that - even with all the trapping you have done on the back wall - the variation from middle to front row might be less significant than the variation from middle to back row. That just seems to be the way it goes close to walls, even with treatments like you have applied.

Assuming for the moment that is what you find, then you have to make one of the following 3 choices:
  1. Prioritize middle then front row, consider the back row "outliers" and not include them in your final analysis pattern: Probably the path that would give you the best sounding 8 seats. Then try a final pattern something like:

    Code:
    ---------------------------------
    |        | |        | |        | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  BACK
    ---------------------------------
                                                           all points at actual head position, except: 1, 2, & 3 three inches
    -----------PLP-------------------         from the seat back, 4 & 5 four and 1/2 inches from seat back,
    |    4   | |3 1 2 | |   5   | |        |         and 6, 7, & 8 six inches from seat back
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  MIDDLE
    ---------------------------------
    
    ---------------------------------
    |    6   | |  7    | |   8   | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  FRONT
    ---------------------------------
  2. Prioritize middle then back row, consider the front row "outliers" and not include them in your final analysis pattern: Just guessing this will give you 8 main seats that don't sound as good as option 1. The best pattern for this choice might look something like this:
    Code:
    ---------------------------------
    |    6   | |  7    | |   8   | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  BACK
    ---------------------------------
                                                           all points at actual head position, except: 1, 2, & 3 three inches
    -----------PLP-------------------         from the seat back, 4 & 5 four and 1/2 inches from seat back,
    |    4   | |3 1 2 | |   5   | |        |         and 6, 7, & 8 six inches from seat back
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  MIDDLE
    ---------------------------------
    
    ---------------------------------
    |        | |        | |        | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  FRONT
    ---------------------------------
  3. Prioritize all rows equally: Prioritize all the same. Sadly, if you have much variation to work with, this will probably give you the most unsatisfying overall sound, with NONE of the seats sounding all that good. Pattern:
    Code:
    ---------------------------------
    |        | |  5    | |   6    | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  BACK
    ---------------------------------
                                                           all points at actual head position, except: 1, 2, & 3 three inches
    -----------PLP-------------------         from the seat back, 4 & 5 four and 1/2 inches from seat back,
    |        | |3 1 2 | |   4    | |        |         and 6, 7, & 8 six inches from seat back
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  MIDDLE
    ---------------------------------
    
    ---------------------------------
    |        | |  7    | |   8    | |        |
    |        | |        | |        | |        |  FRONT
    ---------------------------------


By grouping more points on the PLP row you give it somewhat higher priority and keep more MultEQ power focused there, that will help some where there is more variation, I would definitely recommend you do that no matter what.

Try steps 1 thru 4 first and let us know what you think of that "ideal" sound. Almost forgot: Do the 8-Point Basic pattern, step two, right where your head would be, even though that seat back is right there close to the setup mic. MultEQ will then be hearing what YOU would be hearing. I would really like to hear your reaction.
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post #25 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 08:28 AM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Raising the LFE value in the AVR to 120 - assuming mains LF point left at 40, for instance - has both the mains and sub working the range from 40 to 120, almost sure to be a major disruption of FR through that range. One of the main purposes of a crossover point is to keep driver interaction to a minimum. I would expect the best results from A) leaving the settings the way AMEQ set them; or B) possibly, if FR seems not to be disrupted, changing the X-over settings for sub and all speakers to 60 or 80 Hz, as seems best for your speakers, as long as the FR in that range seems not to be disrupted.
The LFE setting is a LPF for only the LFE channel, not a crossover so it has no impact what is going to the front channels. You can either set it to 120hz and be sure you are hearing everything in the LFE channel, or as Sanjay mentioned, set it to 80hz to roll it off a bit. In that situation you may be slightly loosing some content but maybe it sounds better or integrates better for you.
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post #26 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 01:15 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Thank's for all the input everybody. I think I'm going to do some experimenting with the X-overs just to see what my speakers, my ears, and my room likes. When doing REW I have a big dip in the 61 and 71Hz range so I think I will try the X-overs at 60 to start with. My surrounds, AT-15's go down to the upper 20's, plus everything is on amps so I have plenty of power to push whatever sound does come out of them.

Apparently when running audyssey, I've been doing it all wrong, putting the mic in front of the couch, behind the couch and in every seat. Next time, all 8 positions will be on my cushion, being I'm the only one who cares.

Thank's again everybody


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post #27 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 02:57 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
I suspect you are getting some serious interaction between mains and subs in that range where they are both active, and if you were to look at it with measurement equipment, it is almost guaranteed not to be smooth or well controlled.

If you want more bass, a much better way to get it is leave MultEQ's settings so they are giving you smooth low-frequency response, then boost it with your AVR's tone controls. A gold old LF shelf "Bass" control should give a fairly well controlled result.
Wayne, you are pretty much saying leave the crossovers where XT32 finds them and the LFE at 80Hz not change it to 120Hz as most say, correct?

I have all THX speakers and I have always moved my crossovers up to 80Hz as THX mentions to do, and set LFE to 120Hz, but I have always felt something was out of whack in the sound! After XT32 my speakers range from 40Hz, 60Hz and 70Hz, Im running wides and highs with surround L&R.

Im going to do a test run today with your recommendation of "best" group seats middle and front row mic positions, and leave everything as XT32 finds it, then I will report back.

BTW.
How did you arrive at these mic positions that differ so much to what Audyssey recommends and the guys on AVSforums, especially the near-field ones?
I find it very intriguing as I too found that my sound improved when I placed the mic exactly where the head was in my seats, close to the back at 3". When I did this the ringing in my bass disappeared, but the guys on AVsforums told me I was wrong and in doing so I was making all my other seats bad. I never thought they were bad with this near-field placement, I knew it sounded better, but for fear of breaking the rules I went back to the "so called correct" mic placement and also went back also to the ringing resonating bass......

Oh dear what a dilemma its all been for a very long time......
Over the last few nights Ive been following your recommendations and my results have been improving again, Im breaking all the so called "correct mic positions" with the mic "where the ear actually is" (not 2 feet away from the back of the seat) and finally I have improved sound again. The funny thing is, I always thought why are we not placing the mic exactly where the ears sit in the seat, if that's where our ears are surly XT32 will try to correct the place where we are actually sitting, not correcting a place we are not.

Very interesting, at least for me I now know, breaking the rules is improving my sound....

Thanks Wayne for confirming someone else too has a similar theory.
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post #28 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 03:57 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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primetimeguy wrote: View Post
You can either set it to 120hz and be sure you are hearing everything in the LFE channel, or as Sanjay mentioned, set it to 80hz to roll it off a bit. In that situation you may be slightly loosing some content but maybe it sounds better or integrates better for you.
Yup, and let me underscore that last part for folks that read my earlier post: setting the LPF below 120Hz discards some content from the LFE channel in order to get a single blend point between your subwoofer(s) and speakers. It's a compromise and folks have to be comfortable giving one up for the other (not everyone is). Just wanted to make sure people understood what happened when the LPF is set to 100Hz or 80Hz to match the crossover.

Sanjay
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post #29 of 493 Old 07-11-13, 04:03 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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swingin wrote: View Post
I have a big dip in the 61 and 71Hz range so I think I will try the X-overs at 60 to start with.
Can you try placing your subwoofer at the location where you are measuring the dip to see if it cancels out?

Sanjay
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post #30 of 493 Old 07-13-13, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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RapalloAV wrote: View Post
Wayne, you are pretty much saying leave the crossovers where XT32 finds them and the LFE at 80Hz not change it to 120Hz as most say, correct?
I am just saying that approach leaves XT32's corrected EQ intact. No harm in seeing how it sounds with different speaker settings, as primetimeguy suggests, only beware that the EQ result could change somewhat.

Quote:
I have all THX speakers and I have always moved my crossovers up to 80Hz as THX mentions to do, and set LFE to 120Hz, but I have always felt something was out of whack in the sound! After XT32 my speakers range from 40Hz, 60Hz and 70Hz, Im running wides and highs with surround L&R.
MultEQ insists on doing speaker setting its way. I hope Audyssey and AVR manufacturers will consider in the future giving the intelligent user the option of having the EQ done with their own desired speaker settings. We shall see.

Quote:
BTW.
How did you arrive at these mic positions that differ so much to what Audyssey recommends and the guys on AVSforums, especially the near-field ones?
That actually leads to some other thoughts about MultEQ. It is clear that the overall design philosophy for the stock (non-Pro) versions of MultEQ is:
  • make operation as simple as possible
  • no unnecessary options that could be confusing
  • get the best sound possible without making the user have to think about it very much
  • cater to the least common denominator user
  • make a lot of customers happy; which also means accepting the fact that it will NOT make ALL customers happy

And that is a pretty wise approach overall. They do have many happy customers. But if you look around the forums very much, you will also find quite a few frustrated customers who have followed the guidelines and do not like the results.

That is where Audyssey would like to see the Pro kit kick in. More capability, more options, more complexity, even the option of calling an experienced Installer to come over and help do the work. Call the stock approach LEVEL 1 and the Pro Kit LEVEL 2. Again, a smart product philosophy overall.

But there is a gap, let's call it the LEVEL 1.5 gap, for those who want more guidance without getting into detailed measurements and without calling an Installer. I believe there are a LOT of users who fall into that gap.

I got frustrated early on when one setup run would get fantastic results and the next one would get drastically different results - and both patterns were consistent with the "guidelines." The borderline-OCD tweaker in me had to try to understand why (it was actually fun - for awhile).

It became clear after working with MultEQ for awhile that with a little bit more work and thought, it is possible to get better results, or to get good results more consistently. So here is a set of LEVEL 1.5 guidelines for those stuck in that gap. That is the need these recommendations are intended to fill.

If the standard approach (LEVEL 1) satisfies you, you are done! If it just does not seem to be working, don't get mad, don't panic, here are a few more things to try (LEVEL 1.5) before giving up completely and calling the Installer (LEVEL 2).

I will credit Sonnie for helping make this come about. I was pushing at one point to pull REW and simple measurements into the process, but he pushed back, wanted it to be for the user who needed just a little more know-how for better results. So that became the goal, LEVEL 1.5, MultEQ success techniques for the frustrated DIY hobby AV user who would probably never call the Pro Installer anyway.

On the mic patterns, I actually started out with the near-field work, since 2-channel is my own personal area of emphasis. It was a little mind-blowing, one mic pattern would give imaging that would melt your heart (vocalist so laser-sharp you think she is standing in front of you), and a seemingly slightly different patten would give imaging devoid of any sense of clarity (vocalist now with mouth a blurry eight feet wide - yikes!). So I HAD to figure out the near-field techniques, then be able to carry at least the option of good image clarity into the home theater configurations. From there, the measurements showd which patterns types worked well consistently.

Quote:
I find it very intriguing as I too found that my sound improved when I placed the mic exactly where the head was in my seats, close to the back at 3". When I did this the ringing in my bass disappeared, but the guys on AVsforums told me I was wrong and in doing so I was making all my other seats bad. I never thought they were bad with this near-field placement, I knew it sounded better, but for fear of breaking the rules I went back to the "so called correct" mic placement and also went back also to the ringing resonating bass......

Oh dear what a dilemma its all been for a very long time......
Over the last few nights Ive been following your recommendations and my results have been improving again, Im breaking all the so called "correct mic positions" with the mic "where the ear actually is" (not 2 feet away from the back of the seat) and finally I have improved sound again. The funny thing is, I always thought why are we not placing the mic exactly where the ears sit in the seat, if that's where our ears are surly XT32 will try to correct the place where we are actually sitting, not correcting a place we are not.

Very interesting, at least for me I now know, breaking the rules is improving my sound....

Thanks Wayne for confirming someone else too has a similar theory.
There are rules and there are rules. Fun thing about AV is that about the only rules that are really important are the ones that keep you from getting electrocuted or from burning down your house or upsetting the significant other or the neighbors. Beyond that, it is all advice.

One RULE I would suggest is:

It is your system, run it the way you like it. Someone giving you well-intended advice in a forum (myself included!) - that turns out not to work for you in your situation - will probably have forgotten all about you while you suffer with the results for who knows how long. It is just advice.

BTW, I am truly pleased you are getting better results. Seeing the MultEQ writeup in print is fun, but hearing that it helps someone get to a better-sounding system - that makes my day!
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