Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread - Page 8 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
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post #71 of 493 Old 07-23-13, 08:55 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Quote:
AustinJerry wrote: View Post
Glad to hear it, Murray. I assume you are using one of the other patterns, because the pattern I used is optimized (at least in my opinion), for the MLP.
Im using the 103 pattern for the centre row only, Ive decided to stay out of the front and back row and get better results when I do so.

Four mic positions round the centre false seat I make up (with towels) then the four seats are done with the 6" out from the back of the seat. 6" is where our head falls when measured from the back of the seat.



103 - Fair-to-good Image Clarity and more emphasis on frequency response coverage; PLP center, 3 in forward, 3 in up, 3 up & 3 forward, plus points for 4 other LPs (2 for 6-point MultEQ)

BTW, Wayne. I wish these were written this way, its unclear at first reading.....

103 - Fair-to-good Image Clarity and more emphasis on frequency response coverage; PLP center, 3" forward, 3" up, 3" up & 3" forward, plus points for 4 other LPs (2 for 6-point MultEQ)
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post #72 of 493 Old 07-23-13, 10:36 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Hey there - I've been doing some reading regarding proper mike placement with regards to a high backed couch, and have run into some discrepancies .. Here, Auddessey's Chris Kyriakakis states that there won't really be any difference whether or not sound is reflected off the back of the couch

" I don't think there is any conflict in the responses. The importance of the chair reflections has been blown a little out of proportion in some of the online forums. The effect (if any) is at high frequencies. The distance estimation method that MultEQ uses relies on low frequencies and doesn't even see the reflections from the back of the chair. "
December 22, 2009 04:59 pm ( https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/...ies/73284.html )

Then on page two of the above link, he responds to a reader: "

@Robert: it's best to place the mic slightly above the seat back to avoid reflections from it.
December 15, 2011 05:14 pm

He then goes on to suggest: The general rule is: the mic should be exactly where your ears are when you sit, *unless* that places the mic within 18" of the back wall."

So which one is it? is it better to place the mic above the seat back to avoid reflections? or have it at ear level?

In addition, Chris says " The exact distance is not critical. Somewhere between 2-3 ft (1 m) is what we recommend." However in your guide for the best soundstage, you've got positions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 all within 3 inches of each other - lol. Though I don't doubt you've done extensive testing as evidenced by your graphs - I guess I'm not sure which set of position is ideal, the guide's or Auddessey's ... It's a great guide!! and I'm not trying to complain about anything - just confused.
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post #73 of 493 Old 07-23-13, 11:33 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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Last edited by AustinJerry; 07-26-13 at 10:53 AM.
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post #74 of 493 Old 07-23-13, 11:47 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Quote:
AustinJerry wrote: View Post
This topic has received a considerable amount of discussion, so you are likely to hear a number of different opinions. FWIW, here is mine.

If the back of your seat extends above the height of your ears when you are seated more or less upright, you already have a problem. The seat back is reflecting sound and affecting the quality of your audio. So, if you place the Audyssey mic such that it is below the top of the seat back, you have two potential problems. First, it is receiving the reflected sound from the seat back, which will skew the calibration. Second, it is also possible that you could be blocking the path of sound from the surround back speakers, which would also affect the calibration.

So, because of the height of the seat back, you are already in a position of having to make some compromises with respect to the calibration. I believe that positioning the mic so that it above the seat back, and out of the path of potential reflections, is a better choice than keeping the mic at ear height.

A third option, also not without controversity, is to temporarily remove the chair during the calibration. In the end, what matters is that you try several options and pick the one that results in the most pleasing sound for your specific situation.
Well option 3 seems like the worst option IMO - so I'll try option 1 and 2. I'm picking up my first XT32 receiver tomorrow so wanted to be ready for action ... Of cource I suppose there is also option 4 - buy a new couch.
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post #75 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 12:24 AM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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AustinJerry wrote: View Post
I measure each of the three front speakers individually, and then left+right. Since the speakers are set to small, bass management ensures that what is actually measured is left+subs, right+subs, etc.

I never bother measuring any of the surround speakers.
Is the response in your graph above an average of these... or just left+right+sub?
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post #76 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Jerry:

First of all, thank you for responding with so much detail. I know that takes a lot of time. Your response is a valuable contribution to the topic!

Quote:
I thought about why the frequency response would have improved so significantly, when all other changes in the room were tightly controlled. My theory is this: As a measurement mic is moved around in a listening room, it is common to see significant variations in frequency response at different spots. With a very tight mic pattern, these variations are kept to a minimum, so Audyssey has fewer variations to correct and does a better job. Regardless, since I am only concerned with one listening position, the better frequency response is very welcome (although I am not convinced I can actually hear the difference).
Nice summary, I agree. It becomes a fairly straightforward choice when one is optimizing for the PLP. When giving more priority to other LPs, it gets a little harder. I, too, am in the "favor the PLP" camp. I figure in most households there is one discriminating listener, and as long as the sound is reasonably good elsewhere, other listeners will be more than satisfied.

Quote:
I did a network save for my Saturday calibration. Using this Denon capability allows for a reasonably quick comparison between two calibrations (a configuration load takes ~5 minutes).
That is a NICE feature, worth looking for if one plans to play with MultEQ very much.

Quote:
I have performed many Audyssey calibrations, and have developed a repeatable process with attention to detail that produces remarkably predictable and repeatable results.
Totally agree, attention to detail is a key to repeatability and success with MultEQ in general. Vital for those without network save/restore capability.

Quote:
After several days of almost constant listening, both music and movies/TV, I am convinced that the calibration is definitely a "keeper"
I am truly pleased. I sincerely appreciate your willingness to give the approach an objective trial and report back with so much information. Thank you for the feedback.
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post #77 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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RapalloAV wrote: View Post
Im using the 103 pattern for the centre row only, Ive decided to stay out of the front and back row and get better results when I do so.
It can be hard to let go of the idea of improving all the seats in the house. Sounds like it was a wise move.

Quote:
BTW, Wayne. I wish these were written this way, its unclear at first reading.....

103 - Fair-to-good Image Clarity and more emphasis on frequency response coverage; PLP center, 3" forward, 3" up, 3" up & 3" forward, plus points for 4 other LPs (2 for 6-point MultEQ)
Yeah, I need to decompress some of those abbreviated descriptions. It is on my todo list.

Glad you are getting good results in your room.
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post #78 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

Quote:
seanpatrick wrote: View Post
Hey there - I've been doing some reading regarding proper mike placement with regards to a high backed couch, and have run into some discrepancies .. Here, Auddessey's Chris Kyriakakis states that there won't really be any difference whether or not sound is reflected off the back of the couch

" I don't think there is any conflict in the responses. The importance of the chair reflections has been blown a little out of proportion in some of the online forums. The effect (if any) is at high frequencies. The distance estimation method that MultEQ uses relies on low frequencies and doesn't even see the reflections from the back of the chair. "
December 22, 2009 04:59 pm ( https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/...ies/73284.html )

Then on page two of the above link, he responds to a reader: "

@Robert: it's best to place the mic slightly above the seat back to avoid reflections from it.
December 15, 2011 05:14 pm

He then goes on to suggest: The general rule is: the mic should be exactly where your ears are when you sit, *unless* that places the mic within 18" of the back wall."

So which one is it? is it better to place the mic above the seat back to avoid reflections? or have it at ear level?

In addition, Chris says " The exact distance is not critical. Somewhere between 2-3 ft (1 m) is what we recommend." However in your guide for the best soundstage, you've got positions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 all within 3 inches of each other - lol. Though I don't doubt you've done extensive testing as evidenced by your graphs - I guess I'm not sure which set of position is ideal, the guide's or Auddessey's ... It's a great guide!! and I'm not trying to complain about anything - just confused.
[IMG][/IMG]
Quote:
AustinJerry wrote:
This topic has received a considerable amount of discussion, so you are likely to hear a number of different opinions. FWIW, here is mine.

If the back of your seat extends above the height of your ears when you are seated more or less upright, you already have a problem. The seat back is reflecting sound and affecting the quality of your audio. So, if you place the Audyssey mic such that it is below the top of the seat back, you have two potential problems. First, it is receiving the reflected sound from the seat back, which will skew the calibration. Second, it is also possible that you could be blocking the path of sound from the surround back speakers, which would also affect the calibration.

So, because of the height of the seat back, you are already in a position of having to make some compromises with respect to the calibration. I believe that positioning the mic so that it above the seat back, and out of the path of potential reflections, is a better choice than keeping the mic at ear height.

A third option, also not without controversity, is to temporarily remove the chair during the calibration. In the end, what matters is that you try several options and pick the one that results in the most pleasing sound for your specific situation.
This is definitely a tougher topic to resolve. AustinJerry summarized the issues nicely.

The frequencies involved in the reflections/reinforcements/cancellations fall in the upper-mid frequency range (as low as 2 KHz, usually 4 to 8 KHz) and they are definitely responded to by the MultEQ calibration process. I tried some innovative ways to circumvent the reflections during MultEQ calibration - they all failed. My favorite was a rolled-up sock about 4 inches in diameter filling the space between the back of the chair and the tip of the mic so there would be no reflection. After calibration, I first measured the frequency response. It was fabulous! Then I sat down to listen - the soundstage and imaging were non-existent! (I was still working on decent mic patterns - I might give it another try with a known good mic pattern some day.)

Anyway, in summary:
  • The most comfortable seats usually have high backs.
  • The reflections are definitely an audible issue.
  • MultEQ does respond at the frequencies involved.
  • The best sound would be without a high back, above about shoulder height, but comfort is an important part of enjoying music and movies, so we have to work with them.
  • There is no magic bullet approach. The sound will be compromised for comfort.

How to minimize the compromise? My recommendations in order:
  1. Place the mic at ear position in front of the seat back AND, assuming multiple mic positions in front of same/similar seat backs, space them all a slightly different distance forward from the seat back (one at 3", one at 4", one at 5", etc.). No one seems to agree with this idea, and I understand it appears problematic. The simplified logic for why it should work: MultEQ will be responding to the same reflection the ear would be hearing, and should compensate perfectly, right? But if you move your head forward you get a different result. HOWEVER, by using different distances from the seat back for each mic position, MultEQ ends up flattening out the results of those different reflections fairly well, and the overall result is representative of the LP.
  2. Remove the chair for calibration. This is actually a pretty good option, but not practical for a lot of rooms/furniture. With the furniture back in place, the local sonic situation does change somewhat, so it is not a perfect solution. In my testing, it gave results about as good as option 1, it is just harder to do and measurements become a little more difficult (get a laser distance meter!).
  3. Place the mic one to two feet above the chair back. I have seen this give pretty good results and I have seen it give poor results. If you have a calibrated mic and REW to verify the final result with, it becomes a very good option, because then you can verify the result and find a "proxy" calibration height that represents the LP accurately but without the reflection. Without the benefit of that verification, the result becomes pretty iffy, in my experience.

None of these options is fantastic and none of them is horrible. They are all compromises. And it is a close call saying which is better or worse. Sorry the answer is not more clear cut.
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post #79 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 01:27 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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Last edited by AustinJerry; 07-26-13 at 10:54 AM.
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post #80 of 493 Old 07-24-13, 01:52 PM
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Re: Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide Discussion Thread

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Last edited by AustinJerry; 07-26-13 at 10:54 AM.
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