The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio - Page 20 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

View Poll Results: Ten Biggest Audio Lies: Agree or Disagree (If you disagree, you must explain why!) Votes are public!
I agree with all of them. (If you vote here... do not vote again.) 131 44.26%
I disagree with all of them. (If you vote here... do not vote again.) 11 3.72%
1. The Cable Lie: Agree 106 35.81%
1. The Cable Lie: Disagree 37 12.50%
2. The Vacuum-Tube Lie: Agree 55 18.58%
2. The Vacuum-Tube Lie: Disagree 61 20.61%
3. The Antidigital Lie: Agree 70 23.65%
3. The Antidigital Lie: Disagree 43 14.53%
4. The Listening-Test Lie: Agree 79 26.69%
4. The Listening-Test Lie: Disagree 34 11.49%
5. The Feedback Lie: Agree 72 24.32%
5. The Feedback Lie: Disagree 29 9.80%
6. The Burn-In Lie: Agree 85 28.72%
6. The Burn-In Lie: Disagree 37 12.50%
7. The Biwiring Lie: Agree 78 26.35%
7. The Biwiring Lie: Disagree 34 11.49%
8. The Power Conditioner Lie: Agree 76 25.68%
8. The Power Conditioner Lie: Disagree 41 13.85%
9. The CD Treatment Lie: Agree 94 31.76%
9. The CD Treatment Lie: Disagree 25 8.45%
10: The Golden Ear Lie: Agree 81 27.36%
10: The Golden Ear Lie: Disagree 31 10.47%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll

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post #191 of 287 Old 07-27-13, 11:56 AM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

I hear just as many assumptions about what is not possible in terms of effects of cables etc as I do with respect to differences. With all due respect, Danny, I hear lots of personal experience from you that you suggest supports effects that are not well explained within our understanding of physics and electrical theory. Similarly, our friends on the engineering side of things seem to oversimplify and make just as bold assumptions that they understand all of the variables and interactions involved.

It can be demonstrated easily that there are differences in cables, as the article Danny linked shows, but whether these effects are as significant as portrayed by many believers in the audio business is doubtful. There is clearly benefit to the high end industry to exaggerating the differences and leading people to believe that they are substantial to their experience of music reproduced through expensive systems. That much of the difference is due to expectation bias is almost certain. What remains to be done is to quantify effects and map those effects onto perception and qualify what can be actually distinguished with the many variables that affect this ability. It has not happened to the satisfaction of many of us.




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post #192 of 287 Old 07-27-13, 10:56 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

Quote:
pharoah wrote: View Post
a major problem with alot of net based info.there is alot of fud with no fact checking.
What kind of fact checking do you propose? Purely scientific methodology or repeatable empiricism?

Legitimate question. Are the senses trustworthy when everything comes to push and shove?.

Dave

Last edited by dBe; 07-28-13 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Because I did not add the boxer and to be ecumenacle
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post #193 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 05:35 AM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

This debate often goes bad because the sides are often not asking the same question. For many, that they perceive a difference is enough to justify what they believe about how something sounds. It does not need to be checked with scientific methodology. for others, even if they perceive a change, they want to know why and whether it was due to actual changes in the sound or psychological factors. The former are after an experience and are willing to not ask questions at that level. The latter are after experience as well but have to understand it. Then there are busy bodies that are out to force others to justify every belief. Debating, discussing, and disagreement are OK, just remember to be respectful. Nothing else will be tolerated here. That is not directed at any one person, just a reminder that this is a contentious subject and that we will maintain civil discourse at HTS.




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post #194 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 09:17 AM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

Isn't the whole purpose of any music reproduction is to come as close to a live performance as possible?

Why aren't we comparing everything to live performance? Oh, I forgot! Most likely 90% of us has never heard live performance of acoustic music or the piece we are listening to performed live. Comparing one set of equipment to another without referencing either to live music is futile.

How can anyone state that his magic elixir, be it cables, tube rings, etc., makes it sound more real, without ever listening to the original live performance of the piece being played?

Obviously any live performance, other than pure acoustic performance of acoustic instruments without the aid of electronics (mike, reverb, amps, speakers, etc.), is also invalid, since the electronics that was used to record the performance affect the resulting sound. In this case, how do you know when you reached Nirvana (not the group) and you have reproduced the original performance sound?

Back in my formative years (early '60s) when I heard my first mono tube amp, I thought it sounded fantastic. Then I started to attend live concerts and wanted to ask the conductor if he can turn up the volume and increase the bass, because it didn't sound as good as my system.

My point being, what are we comparing it with? Live music or one set of equipment with another?
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post #195 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 11:14 AM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

I disagreed with the listening test lie. While many listening test are conducted poorly, when done correctly it allows for one to compare two or more models. And after all, I've always felt that we should buy what we like & not what others like. Just need to be aware that comparisons need to be set up correctly.
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post #196 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 12:26 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

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lcaillo wrote: View Post
This debate often goes bad because the sides are often not asking the same question. For many, that they perceive a difference is enough to justify what they believe about how something sounds. It does not need to be checked with scientific methodology. for others, even if they perceive a change, they want to know why and whether it was due to actual changes in the sound or psychological factors. The former are after an experience and are willing to not ask questions at that level. The latter are after experience as well but have to understand it. Then there are busy bodies that are out to force others to justify every belief. Debating, discussing, and disagreement are OK, just remember to be respectful. Nothing else will be tolerated here. That is not directed at any one person, just a reminder that this is a contentious subject and that we will maintain civil discourse at HTS.
A perfect response to the topic. I've been doing the audio thing for longer than I want to admit and I know that I don't know a lot about this topic. The man singularly responsible for my transformation from a staunch objectivist to a fascinated subjectivist was a theoretical physicist at Los Alamos National Labs. I got my first " better" capacitors from him. I objected and he looked me squarely in the eyes and said "Dave, we understand the whys and how's of many things in physics. Seldom do we understand the why and the how of individual aspects of physics." Of course this was many years ago and our knowledge base is expanding at a base 2 rate. Still, there are things that elude us. Human perception is one - the arrogance of man as a species is another.

A few things that need to be remembered about the listening experience:

It is wholly a perceptual experience based upon individual preference, i.e. bias.

Perception is wholly an individual experience with the emphasis upon experience.

Every person hears differently due to individual ear structure and HRTF.

Different is only different. Better is better. As always, YMMV

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post #197 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 01:38 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

Quote:
NotBananas wrote: View Post
Isn't the whole purpose of any music reproduction is to come as close to a live performance as possible?
I don't agree with that premise. I think the purpose is to give people pleasure mostly. But for different people there are different purposes and priorities. That is why there are so many perspectives on these "lies".




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post #198 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 03:01 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

Quote:
NotBananas wrote: View Post
Isn't the whole purpose of any music reproduction is to come as close to a live performance as possible?

Why aren't we comparing everything to live performance? Oh, I forgot! Most likely 90% of us has never heard live performance of acoustic music or the piece we are listening to performed live. Comparing one set of equipment to another without referencing either to live music is futile.

How can anyone state that his magic elixir, be it cables, tube rings, etc., makes it sound more real, without ever listening to the original live performance of the piece being played?

Back in my formative years (early '60s) when I heard my first mono tube amp, I thought it sounded fantastic. Then I started to attend live concerts and wanted to ask the conductor if he can turn up the volume and increase the bass, because it didn't sound as good as my system.

My point being, what are we comparing it with? Live music or one set of equipment with another?
i think you make a couple of questionable assumptions. One of which is that 90% of us have never hears a live performance. I think this has to do with your assumption of orchestral music being "live performance" as YOUR reference. Every perceived sound is live performance. The birdsong in the morning is live performance. A passel of rowdy kids singing Happy Bithday is live performance. Only the scale of performance and the venues are different.

The Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture reproducing the body of the music on a loudspeaker with 87dB sensitivity at an average listening level of 2 watts requires 10,000 watts instantaneously to "accurately" reproduce the power envelope of the cannon. That is why I prefer high sensitivity loudspeakers.

I was on the recording team that had the contract to record the New Mexico Symphony Orchestra years ago. Popejoy Hall was so bad that we used microphones throughout the orchestra to help even out the performance so that the performance all through the house was acceptable. Thes mids, known as "specials" in an orchestral context are used in most halls. They are used not only for recording purposes, but through the sound reinforcement system to attain venue balance. They are found in most symphonic venues to assist in sense of scale for full versus partially filled space. So your orchestral live performance may or may have not been artificially augmented.

Conversely, during Jeff Beck's tour with SRV in 1990 Gayle and I were seated in row 4 right in front of Terry Bozzio. The left stack was to our left about 15' away. Bozzio's concert opening kick drum stroke was a visceral experience I would prefer not to experience again. It is amazing how such air 8 McCauley 18"s in horn loaded enclosures can move with 30KW of power per side can move. We always take ear plugs to concerts JIK.

Dave
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post #199 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 10:18 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

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i think you make a couple of questionable assumptions. One of which is that 90% of us have never hears a live performance.
Dave
I don't think NotBananas was meaning that 90% of us have not heard a live performance. I wonder if he is meaning that most of us have not heard the same performance live and recorded. Such as that Jeff Beck concert you attended. You got to experience that performance live, then if you could play that same recorded performance through different playback systems and listen for which system comes closest to the live event. Of course it goes without saying that the quality of the recording plays a major role in this.
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post #200 of 287 Old 07-28-13, 10:36 PM
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Re: The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

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I don't think NotBananas was meaning that 90% of us have not heard a live performance. I wonder if he is meaning that most of us have not heard the same performance live and recorded. Such as that Jeff Beck concert you attended. You got to experience that performance live, then if you could play that same recorded performance through different playback systems and listen for which system comes closest to the live event. Of course it goes without saying that the quality of the recording plays a major role in this.
I think he was talking about both examples. That is why I referenced the opening live kick drum in the Jeff Beck song "Guitar Shop". However, his primary reference was to live symphonic music. That was the main thrust of my reply. I hope he responds.

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