CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz! - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #21 of 39 Old 06-07-15, 11:54 PM
Elite Shackster
Wayne Myers
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 4,838
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

BlueRockinLou:

We are definitely probing into the future here. Imagine having mics, cables, recording consoles, amps, speakers, all with 100 kHz bandwidth. Crazy talk! But who knows someday? And special metering to isolate the "EEG Factor", even future "EEG Wars" where producers maximize and over-compress the effect, followed by pleas to "return to the good old days of a natural, uncompressed EEG band..."

And maybe it is so unpredictable that we are better off with it filtered out. Some of the higher-priced speaker cables have networks to filter out content above 20 kHz - another discussion altogether.

Just when life seemed to be getting simpler.
AudiocRaver is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 39 Old 11-06-15, 11:11 AM
Senior Shackster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 802
My System
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Maybe this is a simplistic view on things but I can help but think that the waves formed captured digitally are not limit to 20KHz om the recording side. It stands to reason then that the waveform captured by the recording already contain the effects of waveform shaping caused by the higher order harmonics.

Has any quantified how high the harmonics go for all the particular instruments? If not, then this is sheer speculation and taking a bit of science and running with it with no proof.
3dbinCanada is offline  
post #23 of 39 Old 11-06-15, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
Lumen's Avatar
Lou
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,261
My System
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
3dbinCanada wrote: View Post
Maybe this is a simplistic view on things but I can help but think that the waves formed captured digitally are not limit to 20KHz om the recording side. It stands to reason then that the waveform captured by the recording already contain the effects of waveform shaping caused by the higher order harmonics.
A logical assessment, indeed! And since most musical instrument harmonics fall below 20kHz, there's literally nothing to lose by restricting digital sampling to that upper limit.

.
I try to be as good as my dog thinks I am
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Lumen is offline  
 
post #24 of 39 Old 11-06-15, 01:10 PM
Senior Shackster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 802
My System
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
A logical assessment, indeed! And since most musical instrument harmonics fall below 20kHz, there's literally nothing to lose by restricting digital sampling to that upper limit.
That's my thinking too.
3dbinCanada is offline  
post #25 of 39 Old 11-06-15, 04:58 PM
Elite Shackster
Kal
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC + CT
Posts: 1,839
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Oohashi's work has never been replicated by others.

Kal Rubinson
__________________________________
"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #26 of 39 Old 11-08-15, 08:30 AM
Shackster
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz.
Unfortunately, your reference #2 is not actually a reference. That Oohashi "paper" has caused no end of problems over the years. Note that I put the word "paper" in quotes. It was written just like other scientific papers and originally published in a recognised scientific journal. So far so good but the next bit is what's caused all the problems: It was not actually a scientific paper and it was not published as a scientific paper! It was an advert and it was published in the advertisement section of the journal, not the actual scientific paper section! That extra tweeter/amp combo referred to, is the product Oohashi developed and manufactured and was trying to sell. It was an extremely elaborate and clever bit of advertising, so convincing that it's been referenced and quoted countless times as an actual scientific paper, even by other impartial respected scientists and experts, let alone by industry marketing depts with vested interests in their own ultrasonic products.

To address some of the other points:

1. There is not, AFAIK, data on the >20k content of all instruments but i have seen data for some of them. Violin for example was about 4% of it's total frequency output being above 20k. Some instruments, particularly metallic, struck instruments can have significant ultrasonic content; cymbals, gamelan, etc.

2. Until relatively recently, all studio and music recording mics' frequency response rolled off dramatically at or below 20k. There are now some with higher freq response (as high as 50k in some cases) but they're still not widely used.

3. All the evidence supports an extreme limit of 22k for human hearing, with a practical limit of 20k still being at least 2k higher than 99.9% of the adult population can detect. Despite countless studies/tests spanning decades, there is still no reliable evidence to the contrary (bearing in mind Oohashi does not qualify as reliable evidence).

4. Ultrasonic frequencies can interact and become audible. However, there are very specific conditions required. For example, significant ultrasonic energy can cause distortion in some equipment (amps/speakers) not designed for ultrasonic frequencies. This can cause tones to be generated within the audible hearing spectrum. This effect is called Inter-Modulation Distortion (IMD). Two or more individual frequencies can interact and produce measurable and audible additional tones. This is Frequency Modulation but for it to be audible, both/all the frequencies causing the modulation effect must be within the hearing spectrum. If any of the frequencies are outside the hearing spectrum (ultrasonic), the modulation effect will disappear. What you will hear is indistinguishable from the same sound but with those ultrasonic frequencies removed. If you have access to a square wave generator, there's an extremely simple test you can run yourself to prove this.

5. While vinyl can theoretically contain frequency content up to around 30k, beyond about 16k it's response rolls-off significantly and distortion increases significantly. CD can't contain anything above 22k but there is no roll-off in response or increase in distortion until that point. Between 16k and 22k, CD is orders of magnitude more accurate than vinyl and, if one chooses to accept the evidence, what goes on beyond 22k is irrelevant.

6. Starting from the early 1970's, commercial vinyl presses went digital! IE. The (analogue) pre-masters created by the mastering engineers were stored internally by the vinyl press as digital audio and that is what was pressed. Early models were 13bit/32k but by the end of the 1970's the different commercial press manufacturers utilized different digital audio formats, anywhere from 13bit - 15bit and 32k - 50k. This often overlooked fact makes a bit of a nonsense out of much of the digital vs vinyl debate.

7. Distortion is anything which changes a signal and is inherently neither good nor bad or rather, it can be either good or bad. Even the same type of distortion and be both good or bad, depending entirely on context. Due largely to ignorance, distortion is generally a dirty word amongst audiophiles and this unfortunately usually precludes any meaningful discussion about distortion. To get around this misappropriation of the term, some audiophiles seem forced into illogical, irrational or even straight up lies to support their subjective perceptions of good and bad. "Vinyl has higher resolution or sound quality than digital" for example, and of course, many manufacturers are more than willing to take advantage of this fact in their marketing.

8. A common thread in audiophilia is the inability to differentiate between the contents and the container. This leads to all kinds of logical fallacies, not just between digital and vinyl but also between different formats of digital, CD and so called HD audio being a classic example. In reality, High Definition audio doesn't have even the tiniest bit more definition than CD and in some cases it actually has less but by manipulating the contents of the container and misrepresenting the facts about containers, it's trivial to prove to all but the most well informed that HD audio not only exists but is significantly better.

9. Directly related to #8, is the purpose and functionality of the different containers. The LP is a format specifically designed and suited for critical listening, IE. Where listening to the contents of the LP is the sole activity. You cannot for example, listen to an LP on a car stereo whilst driving or using earbuds whilst jogging or sitting on the train/bus/metro/plane/bike, etc. This difference in use, significantly affects what we put in these different containers. A typical example is the use of heavy compression, which is generally bad when critically listening; in addition to dramatically reducing dynamic range, it also affects frequency response, accuracy of the sound stage, frequency separation (or "detail") and other factors. However, when not critically listening, heavy compression (significantly reducing dynamic range) is a very good thing! It allows us to hear details, entire phrases, sections or instruments which would otherwise completely disappear beneath the ambient noise. This is an important and often overriding concern when creating digital audio content and necessitates compromising the audio quality for the critical listening scenario. HD audio is commonly a critical listening only scenario and so we don't have this concern and don't need to employ any compromise to suit the non-critical listening scenarios. LP is strictly critical listening only and can't technically accept the heavy compression used in digital anyway. All this is about content rather than container, we can just as easily put an uncompromised HD audio mix into the CD format and the result would be indistinguishable from the HD original.

Some involved in this thread already seem well informed and I'm sure I've not said anything they don't already know. Maybe some of it will be useful to others and/or initiate a bit of discussion?

G
AudioPost is offline  
post #27 of 39 Old 11-08-15, 10:09 AM
Elite Shackster
Wayne Myers
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 4,838
Thanks for the informative post. I would like to read more about your point number 6. Could you point me to some reading material about it? Thanks.
AudiocRaver is offline  
post #28 of 39 Old 11-09-15, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
Lumen's Avatar
Lou
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,261
My System
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
ellisr63 wrote: View Post
Thanks for clearing that up for me... It's all just in my head then.
Quote:
Kal Rubinson wrote: View Post
Oohashi's work has never been replicated by others.
How unfortunate for me.
Turns out it's all just in my head, too.

.
I try to be as good as my dog thinks I am
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Lumen is offline  
post #29 of 39 Old 11-09-15, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
Lumen's Avatar
Lou
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,261
My System
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
AudioPost wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, your reference #2 is not actually a reference.
Oh, but it is a reference. Turns out just not a good one. Wish I'd known that earlier.

Quote:
AudioPost wrote: View Post
3. All the evidence supports an extreme limit of 22k for human hearing, with a practical limit of 20k still being at least 2k higher than 99.9% of the adult population can detect. Despite countless studies/tests spanning decades, there is still no reliable evidence to the contrary (bearing in mind Oohashi does not qualify as reliable evidence).
Are you certain that's not 99.94% instead?
I had trouble finding any of those studies. Can you post a few links, please?

Quote:
AudioPost wrote: View Post
5. CD is orders of magnitude more accurate than vinyl and, if one chooses to accept the evidence, what goes on beyond 22k is irrelevant.
How many (scientific) orders of magnitude? The "evidence" available relies on scientific principles discovered to-date. What does the future hold? Are you surmising that sound reproduction has reached a pinnacle and no further improvement is possible? What of the scientific tests and instruments not yet developed that may be able to establish a statistically significant correlation between hearing and subtle acoustic events? The earth is flat, indeed!

.
I try to be as good as my dog thinks I am
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Lumen is offline  
post #30 of 39 Old 11-09-15, 03:53 PM
Elite Shackster
Kal
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC + CT
Posts: 1,839
Re: CD vs LP doesn't matter because I hear up to 50kHz!

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
Are you certain that's not 99.94% instead?
I had trouble finding any of those studies. Can you post a few links, please?
Try any modern human physiology textbook and follow the references.

Kal Rubinson
__________________________________
"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
Kal Rubinson is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
50khz , cd , hear , lp , matter

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome