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post #21 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: evolutionary science

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To push it far enough to believe that all everyday objects and states are in two contradictory but simultaneous states goes a tad far for me.
Not to contradict, however, relativity shows us that one object can maintain two contradictory states.
An example of this is the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction. This shows us how as an object nears the speed of light its length contracts. However, from the perspective of someone moving along side this same object, the object will remain the same size. Thus one object can and does remain in two different states simultaneously.
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post #22 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 04:23 AM
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Re: evolutionary science

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Can I infer you have NO concrete ideas in life?? Absolutely nothing in this world that you are certain of? You question even your own existence.

If so, I pity you. Having no certainty is a recipe for disaster, and to be honest I don't think you actually go that far. At times, it is preferable for us to take an action even if 'ultimately wrong', as the alternative is a paralysed inaction, which in my book is worse.

Quantum theory is a wonderful and exciting 'trip', but the big question of course is how and where it breaks down (if at all??) in the macro vs micro domains. So I would be wary of how far in everyday life those concepts are pushed. To push it far enough to believe that all everyday objects and states are in two contradictory but simultaneous states goes a tad far for me.
There I'm afraid it has been proved already, not only that, the state changed because there was a viewer. The reality is all is not what it seems, even Einstein who could not get on board with the Quantum theory coined the thrase 'Spooky stuff at a distance' associated with it.
Weird stuff happens all the time, to us all, You just have to be awake to notice when it happens. Some believe it is devine intervention, and may take comfort with that. Some take a mystical angle on things and some take the scientific view. In the end it is those who master their fear of the unknown to explore any possibility who will take us through the pearly gates of truth.

Am I certain of anything?, well actually yes.....TAXES; life well maybe not so certain, but there if you don't question you don't get answers.

Do I question my own existence? I could argue that there is worse things to question, like questioning the faith of a sports follower and their favourate team. It wasn't so long ago such talk would have one drowned in the local lake, but then the earth was flat and fear of sailing to far from land would end in your falling off the edge of the world.

I need no pity, I'm happy in my space, even if it turns out that I am a fuzzy blob matter or a creature some great purpose, maybe both until some wise chap(or chapess) comes along and rewrites our existence.

Until then I am just an explorer on the passage of life.

Light changes what it is doing depending if we are looking or not. Considering we only see this as a reflection of the past....what is it really doing now?
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post #23 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 06:27 AM
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Re: evolutionary science

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Not to contradict, however, relativity shows us that one object can maintain two contradictory states.
An example of this is the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction. This shows us how as an object nears the speed of light its length contracts. However, from the perspective of someone moving along side this same object, the object will remain the same size. Thus one object can and does remain in two different states simultaneously.
And this state has been shown to exist in everyday life? It may be of import for particles near the speed of light, but for you and I??
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post #24 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 06:31 AM
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Re: evolutionary science

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Weird stuff happens all the time, to us all,
You too?? ha ha

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Am I certain of anything?, well actually yes.....TAXES;

I need no pity,
You got that one right!! the pity was metaphorical by the way.

Too many beers right now to even type correctly, let alone contribute

Catch you tomorrow!
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post #25 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: evolutionary science

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And this state has been shown to exist in everyday life? It may be of import for particles near the speed of light, but for you and I??
Yes and yes, because it's all relative. Also nearly everything we use today relies on some part moving at the speed of light for it to work.

Although I undestand that most people don't see quantum mechanics as practical (only theoretical) I suggest this:
gluons effect quarks, quarks effect neutrons, neutrons effect attoms, atoms effect molecules, molecules effect matter, matter effects us. Therefore what effects one effects all.

Another example I would suggest is quantum tunneling. Without which the transistors in your sub amp would be useless.
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post #26 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 08:13 PM
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Re: evolutionary science

Think we may have wires crossed somewhere, or my poor attempts at stating what I mean.

for sure, there are times when to fully understand or utilize certain mechanical processes, such as transistors et al, then we can and need to apply what we have learnt in areas such as quantum physics. And from that viewpoint then yes it does apply to us in everyday life.

However, in keeping with the start of this thread, namely how we live our life and how we view, for example, evolution, then we have no need to invoke quantum theory.

Sure it does impinge on our technological progress, but when I said it does not affect you or I I'm merely saying that we are NOT a quantum process or body. At a quantum level of course there are quantum processes, but the interesting question that quantum theory poses is EXACTLY where does the quantum theory breakdown and macroscopic everyday life take over.

We personally are not subject to multiple states nor can probability be used to determine whether I am in actual fact sitting here typing this or not. I am.

I love the whole area and am fascinated by it (on an entry level understanding of course, I'm definitely no expert) but I can see no real relevance of it to the topic under discussion.

To invoke uncertainty or be unable to have a decision on a topic because uncertainty exists at a quantum level (which of course is FAR removed from everyday human interaction level) is a sad place to be.

What would have been the reason a hundred years ago when we didn't have quantum theory as a prop for that indecision??

No, we can and do have knowledge of the world around us, it is not the indeterminate and strange world attempting to be conjured here by appealing to quantum theory.
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post #27 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: evolutionary science

Not sure I follow you train of thought. Asking where does quantum mechanics breakdown and macroscopic everyday life take over is like asking where does electricity breakdown and where does the amplifier start? they are intrinsically linked. In reference to the original question, If quantum theory goes someway to explaining the underlying facets of evoltionary theory, then it is very relavent to this topic. (BTW I don't mind the thread going off topic, its still interesting and good fun)
Where we are physicaly located in spacetime is not being questioned here, how we are is. If that makes sence?


I think I understand what you are saying about uncertainty. If we, as people, choose to believe nothing because we have no definitive proof then we become stale and lifeless. However I think this is not quite what was meant by uncertainty. Heizenburg's uncertainty principal plays a detrimental role in understanding why somethings cannot be measured and what we have to do to reach a conclusion without such information. What we need to remember is that even though there are a lot of uncertainties in science (even the definition of a scientific fact is one that states it is not an absolute certainty) sometimes we don't need them to know what is, for intents and purposes, definitively absolute.
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post #28 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 09:36 PM
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Re: evolutionary science

Ahh, but Quantum is mearly a label, a term discribing the world, space, time and evolution itself.
The idea of it has a direct link with this discussion.

It could be in time as elusive to totally prove with 99% certainty either way, as much as evolution is in darwin theory or evolution from a religious faith sense. There is followers of everything, and there is nothing wrong with that. Infact to have your faith checked is healthy, no matter what path you take.
To there is absolute proof either way why not have a foot in both waters.

Where we as humans fail quite regularly is our ability to alter our thinking when our faith is challenged with overwhelming evidence. Ones world, sense of reality can be destroyed leaving one hanging on to old ideas. It took many years, centurys to resolve if we had a flat or round earth. Then there was earth as the center of the universe. The people that brought forward these ideas where quite often ridiculed and margionlised like we humans do to any thing that conflicts with our thinking. Like our bodies reaction to a virus, we send out antibodies to margionlise and kill it, we do the same to races and different ideas that do not fit within our reality and belief systems. But then this is a natural response as we humans have fought for our right to survive on this planet, then you could label that, evolution.

Light changes what it is doing depending if we are looking or not. Considering we only see this as a reflection of the past....what is it really doing now?
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post #29 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 10:33 PM
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Re: evolutionary science

Great thread and some great points!

I hear the words evolution and faith used like antonyms and can't help but wonder if there may be a way they can both be true... (?)
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post #30 of 59 Old 10-12-07, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: evolutionary science

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I hear the words evolution and faith used like antonyms and can't help but wonder if there may be a way they can both be true... (?)
Absolutely,

Whilst they are two completely different articles, there is nothing in either of them that precludes the other. Where some people get caught up is either not fully understanding one or not wanting to accept the other. An open mind generally yields to some degree of acceptance of both. I could postulate all day as to why some people think one (indeed even BB theory/literal genesis theology) precludes the other, but I have yet to meet someone who can argue a scientific/logical case against the bible without misconstruing the scripture. Or indeed why some religions can't displace evolution theory without mis-representing science.

I think it comes down to our personal disposition as to what we are
a) comfortable believing,
b) understand to be the more logical reallity or
c) have repeated personal experiences that cannot be explained using current scientific understanding.

And sometimes you just need to go with your gut feeling

Last edited by drf; 10-13-07 at 04:44 PM. Reason: replaced censored word.
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