The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe. - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 55 Old 07-30-09, 10:25 PM
Mike
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

I just applied my first coat of 1:1 LBVS + Behr 1850 and it is surprisingly white. Will see final result tomorrow!!!
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post #22 of 55 Old 07-31-09, 01:01 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Quote:
michelspascie wrote: View Post
I just applied my first coat of 1:1 LBVS + Behr 1850 and it is surprisingly white. Will see final result tomorrow!!!
Yes, at N9 C&S is a very light gray mix. My test batch of the Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel/LBVS 1:1 mix (which should be the same as using Behr #1850) was even a little lighter at N9.2.

C&S mixes have always been about having a bright screen while giving a little help with contrast for PJ's that need that; they have never been about helping with ambient light problems - they just aren't dark enough for that.
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post #23 of 55 Old 09-04-09, 09:38 AM
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Bram
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?
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post #24 of 55 Old 09-04-09, 07:58 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

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Stropdas wrote: View Post
Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?
Hi Bram!

Welcome to the Shack!

In theory, yes, adding a neutral gray paint should make the mix darker while keeping the mix neutral. A neutral added to a neutral produces a neutral. What is unknown is how it affects the reflectiveness of the mix. However; starting with a neutral gray base to make C&S wouldn't work since the metallic silver paints used depend on the white paint NOT being neutral (they are a bit "warm" in color) to counteract the slight blue color of the silver paints.

C&S mixes made with Craft Smart Metallic Silver can have a fair amount of gray paint added and still produce a mix with screen gain above that color of gray paint alone, but I don't know how the Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver will react to such dilution.

As I have said in several other posts I've been so busy this summer I haven't had a chance to properly test mixes like Cream&Sugar International. I hope that will change shortly.

If they prove out, I also hope to have two new mixes based on these experiments; one that uses CSMS for North America and one using LBVS for the rest of the world.

All these mixes are still very much in the testing phase, that is why they are being discussed here in the Developers forum instead of the main Screens forum.
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post #25 of 55 Old 09-05-09, 08:07 AM
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Bram
 
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Talking Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Hi Don,

You are so right. First is to make an European C&S with the right white. For the mix with LBVS you used
Behr UPW (249 249 245) . For C&S Luminous White (247 247 242) is used. For NCS Colors there's "S 0300-N" (245.82 244.88 241.07). A little more grayish overall with a little more red

For Scorpion N8.0 There's a 50:50 BW and C&S. For a Scorpion N8.5 there's a different mix with only 17% BW and more white than normal C&S. With BW mixed with too much white the effect of the aluminium particles is fast decreasing, does the 17% BW with just 3,5% of the total mix being AAA much more than a neutral gray of N7.5 with bringing reflectiveness on the wall? Otherwise your suggestion of adding gray paint looks a lot easier and cheaper. A darker gray (almost black 10 10 10) would darken C&S more than a lighter gray with less diluting i presume

I'm enthusiastic about DIY-paint. Reading a few hours a day last week. I used to project to a (sort of) white wall with structure but now it's time for a real screen. Just letting my thoughts free here
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post #26 of 55 Old 09-05-09, 10:12 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

The NCS color you noted looks like it would work well for making C&S Int., but we won't really know until someone actually makes a small amount and sends either mech or I a sample to test for brightness and neutrality. Thanks for looking that color up Bram!

At the moment, I can't remember if anyone has made a screen using Scorpion N8.5 or not. It is a bit of the "odd man out" of our mixes since many parts of it must actually be measured, but at least it is in larger amounts and not down to the milliliter as with some mixes at other forums.

I have never tested the Scorpion N8.5 mix so I can't speak authoritatively on it, but even at a low percentage I would think there would be a visible difference between adding a neutral gray paint and adding BW. Aluminum is a powerful reflector. I'll talk to mech about Scorpion N8.5 and get back to you. At this point I'm not sure if a Scorpion mix using C&S Int. is feasible or not.
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post #27 of 55 Old 09-10-09, 01:45 AM
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Bram
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

LBVS uses titanium dioide coated mica. Smart Craft uses different ingredients for reflectivity? I tried to post a link to the PDF with the infor from LVBS but are not allowed to post links yet.. there goed my whole message Looking foreward to the test results of the sample C&S International
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post #28 of 55 Old 09-10-09, 02:29 AM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Quote:
Stropdas wrote: View Post
LBVS uses titanium dioide coated mica. Smart Craft uses different ingredients for reflectivity? I tried to post a link to the PDF with the infor from LVBS but are not allowed to post links yet.. there goed my whole message Looking foreward to the test results of the sample C&S International
Yes, CSMS does not use mica, but rather some form of aluminum coated flake. This was demonstrated by a user at another forum who needed a screen that retained light polarization so he could use it for watching true 3D movies. He was recommended by others to try various mica-based paint mixes and when he did NONE of them worked! They ALL lost polarization in the reflected image. Mica depolarizes light.

When he tried using AAA-F (pure aluminum flakes) the screen worked, the same when another oil-based aluminum paint was used. When CSMS was tried it kept a lot of the polarization, but not quite as much as the real solid aluminum flakes of the AAA-F.

Also, the prismatic effect (breaking up white light into colors) of mica is not seen in CSMS.

What has been found is that even a mica-based paint can be used as the reflective element in a screen mix when it's negative aspects are controlled by adding enough opaque paint.

Custy has been trying different white paints available to him in the U.K. to mix C&S Int. and the results are not as favorable as I had hoped. He is seeing a difference in both shade and reflective characteristics so it seems that just any white paint won't do. I have ordered some Liquitex BASICS Value Titanium White which I hope will solve that problem. We'll see...

One of the problems with using an artist paint as a screen paint is cost; artist paints are more expensive that the average house paint here in the U.S., and I'm assuming the rest of the world. Luckily, there are a number of on-line stores selling Liquitex at large discounts (over 50% off retail!), so the price does drop down close to using a high or medium quality latex house paint. For example, Dick Blick is selling a quart of Liquitex BASICS Value Titanium White for less than $15 which is less than the same amount of some of the Behr paints commonly used to make screen mixes. The Liquitex is really about the same price though when you add shipping charges to it and local sales tax to the Behr. I'm truly hoping those folks outside the U.S. can also find such discounts for Liquitex.
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post #29 of 55 Old 09-12-09, 12:04 AM
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

I stumbled across Createx Auto Air Fine White Metallic while looking for Auto Air Aluminum Fine. It made me stop to wonder if any one has ever tried it out as a substitute for Craft Smart Silver. If its anywhere near as potent as AAA Fine.... then it might be worth looking into. From the way Auto Air categorizes it, it would appear that it isn't pearl based. Auto Air has a whole series that they refer to as pearls, and a series that they refer to as metallic. Clearly this is the latter.

Just wondering if anyone has experimented with it as a possible Craft Smart Silver substitute yet?
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post #30 of 55 Old 09-12-09, 12:46 AM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Good find David, but I've looked into AA Metallic White and according to it's MSDS it does contain mica.



I think I got some to test and I could clearly see the prismatic effect of mica in it; I'll have to double check that though.

http://cdn.dickblick.com/msds/DBH_253111564.pdf

While we haven't found a non-mica "white" reflective agent yet that doesn't mean it's not out there somewhere. Keep looking!
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