The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe. - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 10:03 AM
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David
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Bummer, that's too bad.

As I mentioned earlier, I am working on replicating the Stewart Greyhawk RS G3 in the form of a screen paint. I had my local Lowes scan a sample of it under their X-Rite to determine a paint mix that matches its general color.

The machine came back with the following formula, based on a gallon of Ultra White IFE...
101 (Black) 53
107 (yellow oxide) 16
109 (red oxide) 4

Then I had them scan a sample of BJA in Valspar Ultra White in a 5:1 ratio.
The tint equivalent for that was...
101-40
102 (blue)- 3.5

Craft Smart Silver in Valspar Ultra White at a 3:7 ratio came back as follows...
101- 13.5
102- 2

So, the presence of the blue in the BJA & CSS codes tells me that an accurate Gray Hawk mix cannot be achieved using either of those two reflectants. However, the GrayHawk codes led me to believe that a screen paint might be successfully formulated, using a gold or white reflective additive. (That's why I was looking at Auto Air Metallic White).

Next I made test panels with Craft Smart Gold, Craft Smart Bronze, and a few other gold craft paints made by Plaid (manufacturer of Craft Smart), searching for a suitable gold reflectant. Unfortunately, none of them exhibited notable visible sparkle once added to a white base... so I have to assume that they would not be effective in a screen paint.

Anyone out there have any suggestions on what might make a suitable gold or champagne reflectant? I was on the TRG Global website and their description of Gold Xyrellic Pearls caught my attention. They claim that they are the most highly reflective pearls available.... and they were also described as "non-interference" pearls. Anyone out there ever experimented with them?
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post #32 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 05:34 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

First off David, if you have the tint names for the Lowe's tint numbers would you please post them? I keep forgetting to get them when I got to Lowe's.

About duplicating the G-3, I found the following in a quick Internet search (bolding mine):
The G-3 is not a substrate revision, it is an optical coating revision. We've developed the ability to apply a smoother grained surface optical coating, while preserving and slightly increasing the viewing cone.

The SST is a further revision of the optical coating, same substrate, but a different balance of pigmentation to widen the cone, reduce the net size further of the angular reflective elements, so that the coating is not visible until you are close enough to see the pixel grid on a 1080p projector. In doing so, the gain is reduced a bit. The gain is 1.1 and you need to have the horsepower to light it. I would venture to say that it looks best at 100" and smaller with the outputs of the 1080p projectors I've tested with it, which include some favorites here.

The higher gain can make the screen a bit more visible at shorter viewing distances. The G-3 is a bit better at rejecting ambient light as well.

Gain of the G-3 is 1.25 on axis, with a 28 degree half-gain. The revised fabrics are all smoother, and thus suited to high resolution projectors. It's a really nice flat planar surface, not as rough as our previous Firehawk or Studiotek.


The point is that the G-3 has an optical coating; when such are measured with a spectrophotometer only part of the story is revealed and PJ light reflected from the screen must be measured as well to get the real picture of how the screen performs.

Rather than exactly match the color of a G-3, I would go about it by finding out what N-Value the G-3 was and then try to make up a mix that had the same shade (while remaining neutral) and reflective qualities. I suspect, depending on how dark the G-3 is (I've never seen one) that either AAA-F or CSMS could be used; the secret is to neutralize the color of the mix after finding the reflective qualities you want.

Depending on how advanced the tech is in the screen optical coating it might be very difficult, or impossible, to replicate in a simple DIY mix. The dnp Supernova is an example of this. There are processes that commercial screen manufacturers do that we can not. In this case it's a question of does the advantage such a screen has over lower cost commercial screens and DIY screen mixes really justify the price difference?

Besides taking your screen mix samples to Lowe's or Home Depot, I would be glad to take spectro readings of them. They would give you much more info than a simple paint formula does. I need about a square inch sample to measure.

Do you mean that Craft Smart Metallic Gold and Bronze don't show up in your mixes like the Silver does? Or are you using less of them in a mix?

Another paint to try is Palmer Metallics. Custy found them in the U.K., but they are actually made in the U.S. The silver darkens white paint more than CSMS, but it has visible sparkle even at 10:1! http://www.thecraftshoponline.com/pr...idproduct=3952

I never heard of the Kustom Shop Xyrellic Pearl's before. Interesting stuff! I missed where they were described as "non-interference" colors, but the fact that they are not made with mica is a plus.

Xyrellic pearls are based on aluminum dioxide particles sized from 5-30 microns then coated with highly refracted metal oxides.

What would concern me the most is particle size; 30 micron is getting pretty big for a reflective flake. The reason we abandoned AAA-Medium is because we were seeing a few sparkles from normal viewing distance. At $29.95 for 2 oz. it's a bit pricey as well, but could be worth it if it works well. I'm also still confused if this is a premixed paint or just a powder. If it's paint, is it water-based? http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/kspearlxp.aspx
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post #33 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 07:08 PM
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David
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

I am saying that the gold and bronze versions of Craft Smart do no exhibit any visible sparkle when mixed 30%:70% with Valspar Interior Flat enamel. I prepared a small test panel of each of them last night, to test for sparkle. Compared to the Craft Smart silver, they have almost no visible sparkle after being mixed with Valspar. Maybe the C&S formula using them with Valspar Ultra White base, needs to be re-thought. It may be the most neutral, but an educated guess says that it is probably the least reflective as well. My tests show that the Silver Craft Smart is the only one that exhibits notable sparkle when mixed into Valspar IFE.

As for the "non-interference" part of the Xyrellic pearls... maybe I read that somewhere other than the TCP Global website. I have found them in several places. Sherwin Williams and a few other automotive paint stores sell their version of them as well. I lose track of some of the websites I research on, due to the fact that I'm often up reading them late at night and usually a bit tired. I'm fairly sure that I read that about them, as it was the part that caught my attention. I could be wrong though. At $29 per 2oz, they are pricey. But if they allowed for a breakthrough in DIY screen quality, it would be worth it. Still a lot cheaper than a Stewart screen. Possibly, some of the other sources have them finer than 30microns. How many microns would be ideal for our purposes? I was under the impression that it is sold in dry powder form.

I'd be happy to send you the Stewart screen samples I have, if you want to spectro them. It is a single 8 1\2 by 11 card that has 2inch samples of Stewart's top 6 screens glued to it. I would definitely need to get it back ASAP though. Just pm me your address, and I'd be happy to drop it in the mail. I also have some interesting samples from www.Paintonscreen.com and Digital Image that I'd like to reverse engineer as well. I'd be happy to send them along also.

Last edited by DavidHawke; 09-13-09 at 07:38 PM.
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post #34 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 07:23 PM
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

I just checked out the link to the Palmer Metallics. Maybe their gold version, sparkles better than Craft Smart's. Goes to reason that it might, if their silver is as potent as you say it is. I'll probably order a bottle of each to play around with. If it does, then it might make a better valspar C&S, than the gold/bronze Craft Smart formula. Of course it begins to defeat the purpose of simplicity. I found that mixing C&S with Valspar tinted to "Refinement" is actually the easiest way around shelling out for overpriced SW Luminous White.
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post #35 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 08:06 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

When I was doing the testing of the C&S formulae I had a composite screen of all three plus a Kilz2 panel and one of the RSMM mix that Mississippiman posted. It's in this post. C&S #1 was slightly brighter than the #2 and #3 mixes, but it also measured a bit brighter with the spectro so that was expected. The next time I get to Michael's I'll get some more CSM Gold and Bronze. I hope they didn't change the paint!

I believe that when I ordered my Palmer silver I also got some gold and bronze (or copper), so I'll look into that. Oy! So much to do and so little free time!

You are also right about trying to keep things simple. Simple is good!

As for the Xyrellic pearls, it could go either way. They may be coated like mica is (an interference layer of metallic oxide on top of the mica flake) or it could be a metallic oxide that is reflecting directly off it's surface and not the boundary layer with the aluminum dioxide. Either way, it should be better than coated mica which lets light pass totally through and thus refracts it like a prism.





As for micron sizes for flakes, I would say 10 and below would be ideal. Most of the pearl and metallic paints or additives for automotive use are larger than this because the flakes are designed to be seen from a distance and give a glitter effect. Good for cars, bad for screens.

Thanks for the offer of the loan of your Stewart samples, but I probably should break down and get my own. I need to get samples from the other manufactures as well. Oh what the hey... send me whatever samples you want measured and I'll try to have them back in the mail to you the day after I receive them. I'll PM you my address.
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post #36 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 10:59 PM
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David
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Kustom Shop also sells their Xyrellic pearls on Ebay. The Ebay description actually indicates that they are in a liquid suspension. Not sure if it is water or oil though??

There is also another Ebay seller (thecoatingstore) offering Xyrellic pearls. They told me that their pearls are suspended in a base that mixes well into either water or oil based paints equally well. Not sure how that can be, but I'll take their word on it. Here's the link to their auction...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...9573&viewitem=
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post #37 of 55 Old 09-13-09, 11:04 PM
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David
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

Can you send me a link to "the shack's first DIY offering"? I'm not too nimble at navigating forums.
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post #38 of 55 Old 09-14-09, 04:14 AM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

From what I'm finding it sounds like these pearls are being sold in both liquid and powder forms.

In the liquid form I believe the base is the same used for Universal Tints like are used in paint stores (they don't have separate tints for oil and water based paints). I think it is some form of glycol. If I remember right, it is a liquid that is soluble in both oil and water based paints, but only up to a certain point then it starts affecting how the paint drys and such things.

The term "Xyrellic" seems to indicate the pearl is made with aluminum dioxide instead of mica. I've read that Auto Air colors are available with them too, but I can't confirm that at AA's site so I'm not taking that as gospel just yet.

I'm still a bit worried about the size of the flake, but who knows?

If you test any of these please send me a sample! They sound fascinating, but my dance card is full for the foreseeable future.

I believe "the shack's first DIY offering" refers to Black Widow, but the way my memory has been failing me lately... whoa.
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post #39 of 55 Old 09-14-09, 12:43 PM
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

I plan to test the white & gold Xyrellic pearls shortly, as a possible reflectant for my experimental Grayhawk clone. Now that you mentioned that Createx may be using Xyrellic in some of their pearls, I'm going to pick up a small bottle of the Auto Air Pearlized Gold and try it as well. The local Michaels sells 2oz bottles of it for $4.49.

I also ordered some powder form automotive grade "white micro-pearl" from seller "thecoatingshop" on Ebay. He claims it is the same grade used by House of Kolors, 10 microns or less, and he's much cheaper than HOK ($10 shipped per OZ, rather than $60 per OZ for HOK).

I'll mix some test panels of all of these into Valspar Ultra White IFE and I'll mail them to you for inspection, once I get them made. The Stewart sample card will go out in the mail to Harpmaker today.
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post #40 of 55 Old 09-14-09, 02:07 PM
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Don
 
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Re: The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

The Auto Air colors that are supposed to be Xyrellic are the 452x series (the Cosmic Sparkle colors). http://www.chicagoairbrushsupply.com/aucocospco.html

I'll be looking for the samples in the mail. Thanks! Will get 'em back to you ASAP.
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