HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 92 Old 12-05-09, 09:50 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

So, can you give me some specific tips as to WHAT needs adjusting to correct the dE? I note that in HCFR there is no "real-time" dE value that shows in the list of values that show when you run the continuous measures mode I used to adjust things in the CMS. delta E only shows up after running a set of measures.

The calibration guide I followed is
here

It uses the 75% saturation windows in the AVSHD disk in combination with a spreadsheet and some target values to adjust the RGBCMY values towards. As I've already said, I am far from an expert so I just followed the guide as strictly as I could.
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post #22 of 92 Old 12-07-09, 11:01 AM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

The CMS is pretty flexible but maybe not so usable. The BenQ model sounds better.
I stole this quote from a review that describes is succinctly:
Quote:
For those who are more technically inclined and like to experiment with all the subtle nuances of their image, the 6500UB will serve you well by accessing the Advanced section of the Image menu. It’s here you can adjust your Gamma from five settings ranging from 2.0 to 2.4. There’s also an RGB option that lets you adjust Gain and Offset for your red, green, and blue. And taking image customization to a whole other level, you’ll also find a section for RGBCMY which allows you to individually adjust the Hue, Saturation, and Brightness for red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, and yellow.
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post #23 of 92 Old 12-09-09, 03:52 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Harp, I tried PMing you but your box is full...
Did you get the sample painted card I mailed you?
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post #24 of 92 Old 12-09-09, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Quote:
1canuck2 wrote: View Post
Harp, I tried PMing you but your box is full...
Did you get the sample painted card I mailed you?
Sorry about that, I have an embarrassing tendency to let my inbox get full.

Yes, I got your sample and it looks great! Below is the Spectral Reflectance Chart for it. The bump in the deep violet and orange, and the dip in the extreme red end of the spectrum are indicative of a very neutral mix. We still don't know why neutrals have this curve.

The L* value equates to a N value of 7.84, which is a tad under the 8.0 value of a true N8, but only the most discerning eye could tell the difference even in side-by-side testing. The a* and b* values are both well under 1.0 and the fact that they are opposites (one negative and the other positive) is also very good.

The color temperature of this mix is 6487K which is only 16 off from the D65 standard of 6503K.

Well done!

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post #25 of 92 Old 12-10-09, 09:57 AM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Sorry about that, I have an embarrassing tendency to let my inbox get full.

Yes, I got your sample and it looks great! Below is the Spectral Reflectance Chart for it. The bump in the deep violet and orange, and the dip in the extreme red end of the spectrum are indicative of a very neutral mix. We still don't know why neutrals have this curve.

The L* value equates to a N value of 7.84, which is a tad under the 8.0 value of a true N8, but only the most discerning eye could tell the difference even in side-by-side testing. The a* and b* values are both well under 1.0 and the fact that they are opposites (one negative and the other positive) is also very good.

The color temperature of this mix is 6487K which is only 16 off from the D65 standard of 6503K.

Well done!

Well, I think the "well done" needs to go to you, since you provided the formula, I just followed the steps...

The colour temp is only ~0.25% off, I'd say that's a pretty small margin considering how simple the formula is (three ingredients). So if the goal is simplicity with consistent results, that's very impressive!

The N value as well is a pretty small margin (2%), so all things considered an impressive result (and a lower N is probably okay for me anyway since I have good light control and a powerful PJ lumens-wise).

Not sure if I told you, but the sample card was rolled at the same time as the screen. I did coat 1 on the screen, then rolled the card. Waited. Then coat 2 on the screen, rolled the card. Waited. Then coat 3 and rolled the card. So its pretty representative of what went up on my wall. The only diff is the card was not primed with Kilz2, but it was a white card from a frozen food box. Given I put three coats on, I'd guess the primer (or lack thereof) would make a minimal difference.

As I've said before, I am exceedingly happy with the results, but its nice to have some science to back-up my satisfaction.

As per Mech's post, I have a little more calibration work to do - which I'll hopefully get to this weekend - its just nice to know I am calibrating against something that's pretty much ideal for my needs.

Thanks again guys!
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post #26 of 92 Old 12-12-09, 07:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Quote:
1canuck2 wrote: View Post
The colour temp is only ~0.25% off, I'd say that's a pretty small margin considering how simple the formula is (three ingredients). So if the goal is simplicity with consistent results, that's very impressive!

The N value as well is a pretty small margin (2%), so all things considered an impressive result (and a lower N is probably okay for me anyway since I have good light control and a powerful PJ lumens-wise).
I believe I mentioned this before, but the reason we design to such exacting neutrality tolerances is to allow for some error either from the user or the paint store. It isn't uncommon to have some variation due to mistinting when using tinted house paints, although this seems to be getting less as tinting systems improve their consistency.

We also try to make our mixes as easy to assemble as possible with little, or no, actual paint measurement; just pour the paints required into a bucket and stir. This lesson was learned from building the mixes posted on another forum where some ingredients had to be measured down to the milliliter or less. Many people have problems doing this, especially with some of the thicker artist paints used to color mixes. Such colors are concentrated and even a small error will make a difference in the final color of the screen.

In the mix family that HTS-X2 will be a part of the range of gray shades will be determined by how much neutral gray paint is added to regular C&S. In theory this would be an "infinitely adjustable" mix with any value from C&S alone (N9) down to where the gray paint comprises too much of the mix and the reflective properties of C&S are visibly diminished. In the real world this infinite adjustability is more about marketing hype than truly useful. Through testing and observation we have determined that there isn't much sense in having mixes closer together than N0.5 which is a "half-N" step.

Quote:
Not sure if I told you, but the sample card was rolled at the same time as the screen. I did coat 1 on the screen, then rolled the card. Waited. Then coat 2 on the screen, rolled the card. Waited. Then coat 3 and rolled the card. So its pretty representative of what went up on my wall. The only diff is the card was not primed with Kilz2, but it was a white card from a frozen food box. Given I put three coats on, I'd guess the primer (or lack thereof) would make a minimal difference.
I forgot to comment on this before, but if your screen surface is the same as the sample card you would have gained little, or nothing, by spraying instead of rolling! That sample is the smoothest rolled sample I have ever seen.

Quote:
As I've said before, I am exceedingly happy with the results, but its nice to have some science to back-up my satisfaction.
Yeah, I have no idea why some people are against scientific measurement of DIY screen mixes, unless perhaps the results would disprove their comments on screen performance - but I won't go there.
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post #27 of 92 Old 12-12-09, 08:32 AM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
In the mix family that HTS-X2 will be a part of the range of gray shades will be determined by how much neutral gray paint is added to regular C&S. In theory this would be an "infinitely adjustable" mix with any value from C&S alone (N9) down to where the gray paint comprises too much of the mix and the reflective properties of C&S are visibly diminished. In the real world this infinite adjustability is more about marketing hype than truly useful. Through testing and observation we have determined that there isn't much sense in having mixes closer together than N0.5 which is a "half-N" step.
Well I certainly think the idea is a great one. It was very easy to mix - the addition of the N6 to darken an already tried and tested formula is a bit of a stroke of genius if you ask me.
Theoretical question: how would BW compare to C&S plus enough N6 to be as dark as BW? Could it be better, or is it expected to be worse?
Next theoretical question: could a "lightener" be added to BW to achieve similar results?
Last question: Would this formula replace Scorpion? Its certainly easier to make (which is why I got here), it seems neutral enough, but is Scorpion "better"?

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
I forgot to comment on this before, but if your screen surface is the same as the sample card you would have gained little, or nothing, by spraying instead of rolling! That sample is the smoothest rolled sample I have ever seen.
Well thank you The only trick I can share is that I am pretty . I have done a fair amount of rolling for house decorating, so I have a bit of experience, but this was still a slightly new challenge, but probably only because I was more obsessive about it.

In the end I didn't really do anything different than when rolling a regular wall, other than probably go a little slower and be conscious about applying even pressure to the roller, etc... I followed the Tiddler technique, but then that wasn't too far from how I roll a wall anyway (other than doing the old W trick first). When I look at my screen up close, I cannot see any obvious lap marks or inconsistencies which is the thing I was most fearful of. I will say that the third coat probably helped with this so I feel its worth doing a third coat if you are rolling.

Hoping to do a second round of calibration today, but then I just bought an Xbox 360 for the HT room, so we'll see what wins...

Last edited by 1canuck2; 12-12-09 at 01:06 PM.
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post #28 of 92 Old 12-12-09, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
Well I certainly think the idea is a great one. It was very easy to mix - the addition of the N6 to darken an already tried and tested formula is a bit of a stroke of genius if you ask me.
Thank you. The concept is based on Scorpion™ being two neutral screen mixes added together. A neutral plus a neutral equals a neutral. My experience with CSMS is that as the mix gets darker the reflective flakes become more apparent so the concentration should be lessened, thus the N6 paint does two jobs, it darkens the mix and it dilutes the CSMS so the mix isn't too reflective for the shade.

Quote:
Theoretical question: how would BW compare to C&S plus enough N6 to be as dark as BW? Could it be better, or is it expected to be worse?

Next theoretical question: could a "lightener" be added to BW to achieve similar results?

Last question: Would this formula replace Scorpion? Its certainly easier to make (which is why I got here), it seems neutral enough, but is Scorpion "better"?
These are excellent questions and more comparative testing will need to be done to truly answer the first one. I would expect that C&S™ darkened to the shade of BW™ would offer similar performance characteristics, but only testing will determine that. At the N7.5 shade the darkened C&S™ would have a bit higher concentration of reflective flakes in it, but the aluminum in BW™ is probably the better reflector.

As for lightening BW™, it was found that white paint could be added to lighten the mix to N8 without affecting the reflective properties too much, but that was the limit. I believe the ratio for that mix is 4:1:1 Bermuda Beige/AAA-F/White.

I like the idea of the Scorpion™ mix since it is based on two proven mixes simply added together. Again, testing has to be done to determine if HTS-X2 performs as well as Scorpion™, but my gut feeling is that it won't. However; that is why we test - to actually know and not just guess.

Quote:
Well thank you The only trick I can share is that I am pretty . I have done a fair amount of rolling for house decorating, so I have a bit of experience, but this was still a slightly new challenge, but probably only because I was more obsessive about it.
I have to assume that there is a word missing after "pretty", my guess is that for some reason it didn't make it through the "naughty filter" used here at HTS. Either that or brushing your teeth and combing your hair really does help roll a smooth screen.

Quote:
Hoping to do a second round of calibration today, but then I just bought an Xbox 360 for the HT room, so we'll see what wins...
Lets see... calibrate a PJ or play with an Xbox... wow, that is such a hard decision. NOT!
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post #29 of 92 Old 12-12-09, 01:07 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

A-N-A-L

Made for a funny sentence when it dropped the word though...
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post #30 of 92 Old 12-12-09, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
A-N-A-L

Made for a funny sentence when it dropped the word though...
I think simply saying you are a perfectionist would have served better because I just looked up the word and phrase and it only supported my opinion that Psychoanalysis is for the birds... the missing word was funny though!
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