HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix - Page 7 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #61 of 92 Old 01-04-10, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
Wouldn't you also require two different calibrations? One done for the white BOC and a different one done for the grey?

This is one of the things that has always confused me about the side-by-side shots that get posted. The PJ is calibrated (hopefully) for one of the screen surfaces being displayed, so naturally, all the others will not looks as good as they *could* were the PJ calibrated for them.

I'd rather see a shot of screen 1, displaying picture X, with the PJ calibrated for screen 1.
Then take a second picture of screen 2, displaying picture X, with the PJ calibrated for screen 2.

Change as few other variables as possible, then compare the results...
In theory you are correct, it all depends on how different the screens are in color neutrality as to how colors look. In the case of contrast and brightness, as Mech stated a simple adjustment of black and white levels should do the trick.

In my case I have PJ that was designed for presentations and not really home theater use (I would NOT recommend the Viewsonic PJ503D for HT use) and it's color adjustments are poor with only a hue and saturation control like is on cheap TV's from 20 years ago. I have a little more control over contrast and brightness, but not much. I found that I could not compensate for the contrast difference between C&S™ and BW™ with the PJ controls alone. I actually need a dark gray screen to get the image I like.

This is just a guess and an opinion, no testing has been done, but I would say that if two screens were within N1 of each other, and color neutral, you would not have to recalibrate between them except possibly to bring out the finest details in extreme white and black areas.

It also depends greatly on the image being viewed. I use scenes from the movie The Fifth Element for doing screen comparisons and in some scenes it is very easy to tell even a N.05 difference; in other scenes it is very hard to tell even a N1.5 difference (between C&S™ and BW™). This is another reason I like to use the color and contrast bar images in screen testing.
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post #62 of 92 Old 01-04-10, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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pyro2 wrote: View Post
I will easily send you a index card or larger chunk. After thinking about it, what I would REALLY like to see is a side by side comparison of this verse Black Widow. Will you agree this is a fair comparison that is meaningful?
Yes, I think you could make a fair comparison between Elektra™ N8 and Black Widow™ since there is only about N0.5 difference between them. I would expect Black Widow™ would still have the darkest blacks since it is the darker mix, but I'm not sure which would have the brightest whites. It would be an interesting test and one that will eventually be done.

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If someone has either a full BW screen or those vertical panels that are often compared, I would love to send a piece approx 24" x 54" for photo comparison. Only issue I forsee is having enough paint left over from the standard mixture amounts.

Harp, are you capable of doing gain measurements across the viewing cone or does that need to be sent elsewhere? How large of a sample is needed for that?
I can't do gain tests yet (but I'm working on it) so Mech is your man for that. If he agrees to test the gain of your sample he could probably also do a SBS comparison of Elektra™ N8 and Black Widow™ if your sample is large enough. Mech will have to tell you the sample size.
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post #63 of 92 Old 01-04-10, 04:10 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

So, would you like colour and contrast bar images from my screen? Where do you get the specific ones you use? Are they on HCFR? Tell me which images you want to see and I'll do the white balance thingy with my camera and take a few pics...
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post #64 of 92 Old 01-04-10, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
So, would you like colour and contrast bar images from my screen? Where do you get the specific ones you use? Are they on HCFR? Tell me which images you want to see and I'll do the white balance thingy with my camera and take a few pics...
It wouldn't hurt anything to have those as well, but the bar shots are mostly for comparing different screen samples side-by-side. The photos you already posted show the screen nicely in my opinion, especially with your comment about them being what you see with your naked eye (or very close).

The color bar image I use is off the Digital Video Essentials DVD and the contrast bar image is a jpeg file from Tiddler at AVS. I have HCFR, but I've never installed it so I don't know what images it contains.
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post #65 of 92 Old 01-05-10, 08:19 AM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Sorry, I meant AVS HD 709, not HCFR. Getting my tools mixed up...
I did my PJ calibration using the AVS HD 709 disk. It comes with a pretty good set of calibration images. Have you ever played with it?
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post #66 of 92 Old 01-05-10, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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Sorry, I meant AVS HD 709, not HCFR. Getting my tools mixed up...
I did my PJ calibration using the AVS HD 709 disk. It comes with a pretty good set of calibration images. Have you ever played with it?
Nope, I'm still using all standard resolution stuff since I only have a 800x600 PJ.
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post #67 of 92 Old 01-06-10, 10:09 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

umr over at AVS (and I thought he offered over here too, but can't find it) is offering to test DIY samples. I'm planning to paint Elektra N8 this weekend. I would like to send a sample to umr as well as harpmaker and mechman as previously stated. Do you believe this mix is pretty much closed out in terms of development that you would advise to send it? If you forsee future changes, it may be confusing to keep track of.

I don't know if he'll even test it, but I'll extend my offer to him as I did here. Hopefully I have enough material and paint.
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post #68 of 92 Old 01-07-10, 01:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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pyro2 wrote: View Post
umr over at AVS (and I thought he offered over here too, but can't find it) is offering to test DIY samples. I'm planning to paint Elektra N8 this weekend. I would like to send a sample to umr as well as harpmaker and mechman as previously stated. Do you believe this mix is pretty much closed out in terms of development that you would advise to send it? If you forsee future changes, it may be confusing to keep track of.

I don't know if he'll even test it, but I'll extend my offer to him as I did here. Hopefully I have enough material and paint.
I don't think umr made that offer at HTS, but feel free to send him any samples you like. Be advised that while I'm sure umr's readings are accurate, they are only valid for his HT and do not represent the peak gain figures that are the industry norm. This is why his reading of the High Power screen was so much lower than what Da-Lite says it is.

The only potential change in the Elektra™ mixes would be if we changed the N6 "shade adjuster" to a darker gray to get darker mixes, but that would equate to starting all over again so I don't think that will happen.

In the coming months we will gather data and photos of the entire range of N values that will comprise the Elektra™ mixes and when that is done we'll post an introduction thread in the regular DIY Screens forum similar to the ones for C&S™, Scorpion™ and BW™.
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post #69 of 92 Old 01-07-10, 04:57 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

Sounds good. I'm hoping to paint a 24" x 54" piece of BOC and ship it to someone who would like to do photo side by side comparisons. If mech or anyone else who has a full BW screen interested in doing this let me know. Either way I'll ship a 11"x8" piece to you, Harp and umr. Should even be interesting to see how umr and your results compare.
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post #70 of 92 Old 01-08-10, 09:22 PM
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Re: HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

One thing that kind of bothered me about umr's first review is he is reporting something about Designer White that literally thousands of current users haven't reported as seeing, and that is a 'shimmering' effect'.

I don't know if this is a bias or actual observation, but it is one that I can say others (myself included) have not observed. Don't get me wrong, I am not putting him down. Some people though are pro commercial and feel DIY can't match up. One thing I would have liked to have seen from his review is that I can get sheet of DW for around $40 locally and make a 98-100" diagonal screen with frame for around $150. The specs and performance between DW and the ST130 are so close that I really think the price difference should also be taken into account. With that in mind I tend to think everything else is also going to get a similar comparison.

We also noted some slight differences in off axis readings and that could be attributed to setup, but it really isn't a huge difference. In fact it really would take a very good eye to pick up on it, but I don't doubt it is there.

This is the third person to do gain tests though, and so far they are all pretty much the same results.

Yes a ST130 probably does have a slight edge in some areas, but the real question I think that needs to be asked is if it is really that noticable and more important, is it worth a $1500 or more difference in price? I think when broken down that way it has a different outcome.

So I tend to think any other DIY test will have the same type of review... good but... however I think some very important details are missing. And this certainly is meant as no disrespect to umr or anyone.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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