3D screen paint - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 41 Old 03-31-11, 12:58 PM
Shackster
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Re: 3D screen paint

Some friends of mine asked me last week if I could sponsor a 3D projection paint screen for one of their projects (they have a film/video production company that is specialized in the production of 3D films/video's called A Million Dreams).
The screen for the project must be 25 meters wide and 12 meters high - outdoors.

Now I have started a business eight years ago around one paint which is called magnetic paint (magpaint) and was wondering if projection paint would be the next thing for us. Our company has grown into a serious very small company with seven people working, but is very internationally oriented, thanks to the internet. Projection paint might be the next thing for us.

A local paint producer has a finished 2D projection product (MB) and is willing to cooperate.
But then I came across your Forum and read that 3D projection paint is more critical on polarisation.
My friends already pointed out that polarisation is very important in avoiding headaches.
I see the product of MB therefor as totally unfit for 3D projection, because it is not tested on this.

The initial idea was to contact 'Paint on Screen - 3DHD' to see if they were interested in a cooperation, but then I found your conclusion that no projection paint delivers what it promises.

Now I have three questions:
1. Does anyone know if all the 3D paints have been tested and if there are results?
2. If not: is anyone in this forum interested in cooperating in developing and/or testing the ultimate
3D paint (we can throw in a real paint nerd)?
3. Any suggestions?
Rob van der Meer is offline  
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post #12 of 41 Old 03-31-11, 06:39 PM
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Don
 
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Re: 3D screen paint

Hi Paintman, welcome to the forum!

First off, I don't know of any one that has tested all the various 3D screen paints available today. To make matters even worse you now have to say what 3D technique/system you are going to be using when it comes to getting the correct screen because while passive 3D (polarized glasses) requires a large amount of image polarization to be kept intact, active 3D systems (shutter glasses or colored glasses) don't require polarization, but do need as bright an image as possible without hot spotting.

Developing and testing screen paints is what we do here.

Suggestions? We might have a few. While we haven't had the time to seriously get into the testing end of it, the solution to making a passive 3D mix that works is fairly straight forward; the problem is that to achieve one goal of the mix another goal must be compromised!

A passive 3D paint should have as high a content of true reflective metallic particles in it as possible to retain polarization (other substances can be used, but they aren't as efficient as real metal). So one could simply use a nice aluminum paint. The problem is that such as screen is TOO reflective and will hot spot like crazy, almost acting as a mirror. The answer to that problem would be to add enough flattening agent to get rid of the hot spotting, the problem is that by dispersing the reflected light so it no longer hot spots you are also losing polarization! And then there is the problem of also coloring the screen mix so that it is D65 neutral.

We have a few ideas on the drawing board, but haven't had the time to test them yet.

We would love to talk with your paint nerd.

That is one BIG screen you are talking about there! Converted to U.S. dimensions that screen would be 82 feet wide and almost 39.5 feet tall. It would have about a 2.08:1 aspect ratio and have 3,232 square feet of surface. To get enough light on that screen to get the recommended 16 fL of image brightness it would take 51,715 lumens measured at the screen! Those numbers simply blow my mind... I wouldn't have a clue what brand or model of projector could produce that much light, certainly nothing that would fall into the realm of "home theater projector".
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post #13 of 41 Old 04-01-11, 04:48 PM
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Re: 3D screen paint

Hi Harpmaker,
Thanks for the warm welcome!

And for the positive reply. I was in doubt if you would be interested, since I run a business in paint. And that might be too commercial for you.

I would like to invite my 3D friends to this forum, because they have extensive experience in filming and projecting 3D movies. And of course my paint 'nerd' (although this term is not really referring to a young person in his case; he is 54).
So they are informed as well and can contribute directly to the discussion.
Is that okay with you?

One other question: I see that everyone is using only a nickname. Should I also?

Sorry if there are now and then some spelling or grammar mistakes, but I am Dutch. Not that that is an excuse.
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post #14 of 41 Old 04-01-11, 10:54 PM
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Don
 
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Re: 3D screen paint

Quote:
Rob van der Meer wrote: View Post
Hi Harpmaker,
Thanks for the warm welcome!

And for the positive reply. I was in doubt if you would be interested, since I run a business in paint. And that might be too commercial for you.
I'll tell it to you straight, many is the time we mix developers here at HTS have privately discussed taking our screen mixes commercial. They certainly are good enough, usually beating similar shaded commercial screens in one attribute or another (usually D65 neutrality). Our Black Widow™ mix is virtually a Stewart GrayHawk G3 in a can. The shade and gain of the screens are the same (I think BW™ is the more D65 neutral, but I would have to check that). We literally have people making BW™ screens all over the world since the mix is so easy to make (only two paints are used) and one is available locally to them (the pinkish beige house paint comprising the base) and the other is available via mail order or internet (the Auto Air Aluminum-fine). For a few folks in countries that don't use the NCS tinting system and can't match PPG-Bermuda Beige because that brand and color aren't in their local stores paint computer we have sent them, free of charge, a color sample they have taken to their paint store to have color-matched using a spectrophotometer-based color-matching system.

We haven't introduced our mixes commercially simply because we don't have the money and time it would take to start up such a company. So if we can't sell them we give them away!

One thing I will have to admit that is a bit "hard to swallow" (I hope the idiom transfers well to Dutch) is seeing commercial screen mix companies like Goo Systems (makers of Screen Goo) get rich selling inferior products that don't work as advertised (we tested several of their products and published the results here at HTS).

Quote:
I would like to invite my 3D friends to this forum, because they have extensive experience in filming and projecting 3D movies. And of course my paint 'nerd' (although this term is not really referring to a young person in his case; he is 54).
So they are informed as well and can contribute directly to the discussion.
Is that okay with you?
Absolutely! And that 54 year old fella is still "wet behind the ears", I'm 55 1/2.

Quote:
One other question: I see that everyone is using only a nickname. Should I also?
You can if you want to, but it isn't necessary. The convention is to have a nickname (or "handle") as the main username and then give a real first name in the profile area that says it's for a nickname. If anything, I would say that you did it the "right" way. It really doesn't matter.

Quote:
Sorry if there are now and then some spelling or grammar mistakes, but I am Dutch. Not that that is an excuse.
No worries! While we do like to see people try to use proper grammar and spelling (none of the "Uer Gr8" style contractions), we don't get bent out of shape over a few misspelled or out-of-order words, especially from someone to whom English is an alternate language.
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post #15 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 04:53 AM
Shackster
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Re: 3D screen paint

We haven't introduced our mixes commercially simply because we don't have the money and time it would take to start up such a company. So if we can't sell them we give them away!
Maybe I can be of assistance here: if you would like to commercialize the paint still, I would be glad to see if we can contribute to this goal in any way. Although 'give them away' is also fun.

I have invited the friends from amilliondreams to sign in as well. And our paint-chemist.
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post #16 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 08:44 AM
 
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Re: 3D screen paint

Hello everybody,

I am one of those 3D guys from A Million Dreams.
Yes, our surface will be huge, and the projectors we need have to be very strong, too. Our 3D film will be shown outside, when it is dark.
The whole project is sponsored. It is hard for our project to get such a big silverscreen sponsored since it can be used only once.So that is why we focus on painting a surface.

The plan now is to build a pile of see containers, resulting in a surface of about 27 meters x 15 meters, that is 16x9. We will either project on the ribbed containers or on another surface that we connect to the containers.

The people will see the film with 8000 circular passive glasses.

The paint we want to help develop has to be optimal for (circular) passive projection of 3D films. 2D projection on such a screen is not important at this moment.

Regards!

Ivo Broekhuizen
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post #17 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 05:11 PM
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Don
 
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Re: 3D screen paint

Quote:
mechman wrote: View Post
If you get powerful enough projectors you could probably use BW™ in a 3:1 ratio instead of the 4:1 ratio.
Sorry mech, BW™ won't work for passive 3D, too much TiO2 in the mix to retain any decent amount of polarization.

We seriously need to speak with their paint chemist.
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post #18 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 06:15 PM
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Don
 
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Re: 3D screen paint

Quote:
Ivob wrote: View Post
Hello everybody,
Hi Ivo! Welcome to HTS!

Quote:
I am one of those 3D guys from A Million Dreams.
Yes, our surface will be huge, and the projectors we need have to be very strong, too. Our 3D film will be shown outside, when it is dark.
The whole project is sponsored. It is hard for our project to get such a big silverscreen sponsored since it can be used only once.So that is why we focus on painting a surface.

The plan now is to build a pile of see containers, resulting in a surface of about 27 meters x 15 meters, that is 16x9. We will either project on the ribbed containers or on another surface that we connect to the containers.
Could you describe what a "see container" is?

Quote:
The people will see the film with 8000 circular passive glasses.

The paint we want to help develop has to be optimal for (circular) passive projection of 3D films. 2D projection on such a screen is not important at this moment.

Regards!

Ivo Broekhuizen
My only, and very limited, polarized 3D experience has been with linear polarization. Do you know of a source (preferably in the U.S.) when I could obtain a circular polarized filter (I assume it would be a plastic sheet) so I can build an experimental device for testing? For example, I bought a sheet of linear polarized plastic and placed a section of this over an LED flashlight to simulate a projector beam and then rotate the main polarized sheet in front of my eyes while shining the polarized beam at different test screens to get some idea of how those screens would work as 3D screens.

To help determine the necessary PJ lumens needed it would help to know how much image brightness is lost due to the 3D filters. In my small amount of experimentation I have noticed about a 50% decrease in image brightness with my linear filters.

For the screen itself, it would be nice to know the maximum viewing angle needed (0° being on-axis with the PJ and the center of the screen). The narrower the maximum viewing angle needed the easier it will be to make the screen.

How close will the nearest viewer's seat be to the screen?

Will there be any street lights or other lighting that may hit the screen during viewing?
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post #19 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 07:26 PM
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Re: 3D screen paint

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Sorry mech, BW™ won't work for passive 3D, too much TiO2 in the mix to retain any decent amount of polarization.

We seriously need to speak with their paint chemist.
Well I happen to have almost 30 gallons of water based aluminum paint sitting here! As we already know... Aluminum works for a great passive 3D setup.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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post #20 of 41 Old 04-03-11, 07:58 PM
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Re: 3D screen paint

Quote:
mechman wrote: View Post
How big of a piece do you need Harp? Almost all of the theaters use circular 3d polarization. I'm assuming you would just need the glasses.
I would need two pieces or one large piece I can make two filters out of. One to place on the flashlight or PJ and the other to look through. Of course for a real 3D setup you would need clockwise and anti-clockwise filters for right and left polarization, but for my needs just one would do. I might be able to get by with just 2 sets of glasses. I guess you can tell who hasn't been to see a 3D movie lately.
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