Titanium Sintra Development - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #1 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Titanium Sintra Development

Okey dokey. Thanks to a lot of great help, both here and at the "other" forum, I think I'm close to a solution for my needs. This is a niche screen for sure. I'd say for a 122" screen or smaller WA DW would be a of a lot easier. But for a white 123" to 138" screen size, with a bit of gain thrown in, Titanium Sintra shows a lot of promise, at least for me!

This is not ready for release, I need more testing and feedback.

What is Titanium Sintra the solution for? Dark, light controlled rooms combined with a PJ that doesn't have the output to go gray. Ambient light only for casual sports viewing, dark for movies. All ambient light for sports comes from the side.

My screen is 138". I tried 3 full sized screens. In order of appearance: SF V1 2.0, Bare Sintra, and SF V2 HG. I've tried swatches of C&S V1. I have an Epson 8700UB PJ, and I want to run it in THX mode, not Dynamic or Living room. (What's the point of a color neutral screen if you hit it with inaccurate color?) So I've got around 550 lumens to play with. My first screen, SF was too dark. My second screen, bare Sintra, was bright enough, but boy did it hot spot. Even though it was white, ambient performance was just fine with me. Movies in the dark were stunning, except for the severe hotspot. One other con, a little sharpness was lost on the bare Sintra. My third and current screen, SF HG, hot spots. Out of the hotspot it's marginally bright enough. My Swatch, C&S V1, seems to be a match for the SF HG but without the hotspot. Marginally bright enough, good ambient performance for my situation. But what about as the bulb dims?

I decided a translucent coating for Sintra was the direction I needed to go. Something to tame the hotspotting, but keep as much gain as possible.

First I tried spraying Sintra with Liquitex Fluid Matt Medium. Seemed promising. I put up the swatch a few days later, still some hotspotting. Then I tried sanding the Sintra with 400 grit sandpaper, then spraying with the Matt Medium. Zero hotspotting, but a blotchy look under PJ light. No good. then, two weeks later, I mixed 4 parts Fluid Matt medium with 1 part Titanium White Basics--NOT Matt--and 1 part water. Still some hotspotting, but not as bad as the sintra with Matt medium. So I compared the mix swatch with my original Sintra with Matt Medium. Surprise! The original sample no longer hot spotted. The medium needs at least a week to cure, maybe more. So I waited a week and retested the mixed sample--4 parts Medium, 1 Part TW Basics. Hot spotting gone. And WOW, I love the performance. Color tests and screen shots to follow.

Last edited by Nak; 11-04-11 at 04:24 PM.
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post #2 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Heres the color tests of Titanium Sintra (TS) and some other samples. Testing was done with an Eye1 Pro and BabelColor. (Trial version.) The curves were done at D50 Illumination, because of the trial version limitations. The RGB values were done with D65 Illumination.

The RGB values are for: (Left to right, top to bottom.)

Titanium Sintra, Bare Sintra, Sintra w/Matt Medium, Cream & Suger V1, Silver Fire V2 HG

The Black line in all of the curves is Titanium Sintra. The red lines are, from top to bottom:
Bare Sintra
Sintra w/Matt Medium
Cream & Suger V1
Silver Fire V2 HG

Last edited by Nak; 11-04-11 at 04:35 PM.
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post #3 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

The background screen is SF V2 HG. The panels are from left to right: C&S V1, Titanium Sintra, Bare Sintra. Note the hotspotting on the SF HG and the bare Sintra. Also note that the Titanium Sintra is just a bit brighter than the bare Sintra as soon as you have even a tiny angle. BTW, the moire you see is not visible in person, just in these pics.
Attached Thumbnails
Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-0-degrees-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-10-degrees.jpg-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-45-degrees.jpg-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-90-degrees.jpg-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-extreme-seating-custom-.jpg  


Last edited by Nak; 11-04-11 at 04:21 PM.
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post #4 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Contrast and black levels. Left to right, C&S, Titanium Sintra, Sintra with Matt Medium

Note that the black levels on the two right panels are virtually identical, yet the white level is brighter on the TS. (Titanium Sintra.)
Attached Thumbnails
Titanium Sintra Development-cs-ts-sintra-medium-contrast-custom-.jpg  


Last edited by Nak; 11-04-11 at 04:13 PM.
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post #5 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Ambient performance. The two Panels are Left to right: TS and bare Sintra. Note the ambient performance of TS is identical to bare sintra, but inferior to the background SF HG. The bottom picture is a screen shot from a bare Sintra screen in ambient light. Plenty good enough for me. All ambient light is sufficient for reading--if uncomfortably--at the seating position. Left of the screen the curtains are open and bright lights are on over a pool table. Typical sports viewing/party conditions. PJ output has been increased to Dynamic in these shots.
Attached Thumbnails
Titanium Sintra Development-ts-sintra-ambient-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-ambient-2.jpg  

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post #6 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Light controlled screen shot. TS sample against SF HG background. Notice at the lower right of the sample, the darks are virtually indistinguishable between samples. At the top of the sample though, the sky above the tree is far brighter on the TS. BTW, for reference, my C&S V1 sample has identical darks to my SF HG screen.
Attached Thumbnails
Titanium Sintra Development-ts-screen-shot-1-custom-.jpg  

Titanium Sintra Development-ts-screen-shot-2-custom-.jpg  

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post #7 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Subjective impressions. With the TS sample up and watching a movie, the TS is like a window. Clear, bright and lifelike as you look through the window. I'll be redoing my screen with TS sometime in the next month or two; it might have to wait till after the holidays...

I have no idea what the gain is. It seems to me that gain is slightly higher than bare Sintra outside of the hotspot, and much higher as you increase the viewing angle. So, any guesses as to what that would make it?

Input?

Thanks!

Edited to Add: BTW, the slight loss of sharpness seen with bare sintra is NOT seen with TS, or with any of the other samples above.

Last edited by Nak; 11-04-11 at 06:57 PM.
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post #8 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 10:42 PM
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Thanks Nak, that was a very nice presentation! It shows a nice example of what hot spotting is and why it should be avoided.

Mech's smaller samples of Sintra didn't hot spot, but your Sintra clearly does.

It's good to know that the matte medium you used cures to a point that it doesn't hot spot. I do have a question, Liquitex doesn't make a medium called 'Fluid Matt Medium', but Golden does. Could you clarify which one you used?

I honestly don't want this to sound negative, but for the record your C&S test panel was off-color and darker than normal. I'm not saying you were at fault here, it very well could have been the base paint was off. Do you remember which C&S formula you used (1, 2 or 3)? No big deal, I'm just curious.

Did you test your Titanium Sintra against one of the 'Ultra White' paints?

Again, well done.
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post #9 of 26 Old 11-04-11, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
Nak
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Thanks Harpmaker!

I noticed that about the C&S; I'm not sure why it's like that. It's the first formula (#1), and it was definitely the old Craftsmart paint??? I fast dried it with a propane heater; perhaps that caused the difference? Maybe Craftsmart changed the paint before they changed the label...

It's actually called Matt Medium, it's one of Liquitex's fluid mediums.

I haven't compared to an ultra white paint. That's next, along with a WA DW sample. My understanding is that the white paints have a gain of around 1? I'm hoping for 1.3, but who knows? I can't test gain, but a comparison against the WA DW should give me an idea anyways?

My goal was to get equivalent ambient performance and dark performance to bare Sintra, as I was really happy with that, without the hotspot.
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post #10 of 26 Old 11-05-11, 06:15 PM
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Re: Titanium Sintra Development

Quote:
Nak wrote: View Post
Thanks Harpmaker!

I noticed that about the C&S; I'm not sure why it's like that. It's the first formula (#1), and it was definitely the old Craftsmart paint??? I fast dried it with a propane heater; perhaps that caused the difference? Maybe Craftsmart changed the paint before they changed the label...
Several things could have happened to get the off-color C&S #1 mix, neither of which would be any fault of yours. That version of C&S was the first to be discovered and used a base color from Sherwin-Williams called 'Luminous White'; that base, while not totally discontinued, has been replaced by a base called 'High Reflectance White' in many SW paints. It is very possible that even though you asked for Luminous White you were actually sold High Reflectance White which would cause the blue push to the final mix IIRC. The other thing is, as you pointed out, the silver paint itself could have changed while still being sold in the same bottle design and stock number. This possibility is the main reason we dropped Craft Smart Metallic Silver from any future mixes - you just can't count on any "craft paint" having a consistant color or metallic content from batch to batch. It's too bad to because the old CSMS had some fantastic reflective characteristics. I doubt drying it with a heater made any color change in the mix, it could, however, cause cracking due to the paint drying on the surface while the bottom was still very fluid. I've had that happen when I force-dried a sample or put paint on too thick.

Quote:
It's actually called Matt Medium, it's one of Liquitex's fluid mediums.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure you already know this Nak, but to those folks reading this and thinking of trying something similar themselves, be SURE to stir the Matte Medium thoroughly to get an even matte finish. The "flattening agent" added to the medium will separate out and fall to the bottom of the container over time.

Quote:
I haven't compared to an ultra white paint. That's next, along with a WA DW sample. My understanding is that the white paints have a gain of around 1? I'm hoping for 1.3, but who knows? I can't test gain, but a comparison against the WA DW should give me an idea anyways?
Trying to determine gain by visually comparing two different screens is tricky at best. The problem is that many things can affect how we perceive brightness and contrast with the human eye. You can tell which screen looks the brightest under a given set of conditions, but saying that screen has more gain than the other one... well, maybe yes and maybe no. To be SURE, you have to measure the gain with proper instrumentation. Take a look at the image below, it's very clear that the squares marked A and B are two different shades of gray and that B is lighter than A so it must have more gain right? Nope! Squares A and B are the exact same shade of gray (RGB 107, N4.5) so if their gloss levels are the same they would have the same peak gain.



Quote:
My goal was to get equivalent ambient performance and dark performance to bare Sintra, as I was really happy with that, without the hotspot.
I think you will find that the 'Ultra White' paints such as Valspar Ultra Premium interior latex enamel and Behr Premium Plus will achieve that goal, but it would be very interesting to see one or the other in direct comparison to the Titanium Sintra.
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