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post #21 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 12:44 AM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
... I can also say that I am very happy with the results I see just on the Kilz2. I can tell my blacks are not black enough, but it doesn't yet bother me.
This is key; there is no law anywhere (that I know of ) that says you have to make your screen to a given standard. Your satisfaction is all that is required.

Quote:
My gauge is this: Widescreen content adds black bars top and bottom. Blacks displayed in the picture are indistinguishable from the black bars top and bottom, mean my greyscale calibration /contrast/brightness must be pretty much bang on. Right?
I would assume so, but I'll let others with more experience with PJ calibration answer that one.

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However, the blacks are nowhere near as dark as the brown paint on my wall around the screen (which is not surprising).
Is this with all room lights out and only the PJ on? I find that even in my all-white shop (where my PJ is) when the lights go out my screen looks like a window into another reality and I focus on the image rather than on the surrounding walls/floor/ceiling.

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How black would a DIY get my blacks compared to the chocolate brown paint surrounding my screen?
At some point, as you go darker and darker with your screen paint, I would expect you would reach a point where the PJ "spill" on your dark wall would appear to have the same blacks as the screen, but this point depends on the combination of many things (PJ lumens, PJ contrast, scene brightness, screen gray shade etc.) and finally on your ability to see the difference. As a guess, I would say that the screen would have to be pretty dark before blacks looked as they do when projected on a dark brown (which is really a dark yellowish-orange!).

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The other reason I have not got to DIYing is I am scared to spray with the Wagner Control Spray. I am not looking forward to using it and did not get a chance to practice outside before the weather got cold. I'll have to mask the hell out of the room and am fearful that I will not spray evenly. Right now, my screen surface (rollered) is very nice with no obvious lap marks, etc...

So, do I stop at "good enough", or forge ahead with a Scorpion spray job? I need some encouraging and confidence building, because right now we are thoroughly enjoying the theatre as is.
Since you have run out of warm weather for the year, I would recommend you enjoy your screen as-is until you can get some practice time in with the Wagner. Get a feel for how the gun works and how much over-spray it produces (which isn't much, but some). My experience is that if I'm afraid I might mess something up when I'm doing it, I usually do. It's a mind-set that almost ensures something will go wrong. Paint with confidence, not trepidation.

That said, even if you decide to stay with a white screen I would recommend eventually painting over the Kilz2. It is a primer and not designed to be used as a top-coat. All my Kilz2 samples have visibility discolored over time (about 6 months) if not coated with regular paint. And while spraying will generally produce a smoother screen than rolling, BW/Scorpion/C&S can be rolled.

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BTW, if you wanna see a nifty 3D panorama of my theatre, check this link:
http://fieldofview.com/flickr/?page=...t/4081995654/] (requires Shockwave Player)
That is cool! For folks that don't know, you can control the panorama using your mouse and also zoom into and out of the image while right-clicking the mouse.

Two things: 1. I didn't know you were a member of identical septuplets, and 2. I don't know what you or your brother are doing to that right-hand speaker, but it's unseemly.
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post #22 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Is this with all room lights out and only the PJ on? I find that even in my all-white shop (where my PJ is) when the lights go out my screen looks like a window into another reality and I focus on the image rather than on the surrounding walls/floor/ceiling.
This is with the lights out. I would agree with your "window into another reality" statement for ym experience. Which is the point of the brown paint mostly, to make it be non-distracting.

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Since you have run out of warm weather for the year, I would recommend you enjoy your screen as-is until you can get some practice time in with the Wagner. Get a feel for how the gun works and how much over-spray it produces (which isn't much, but some).
The most I was able to do was fill it with water and spray my brick work. I've never really worked with a sprayer before. I am basically going to cover every surface in the room with plastic drop cloth since I am very afraid of the mess it could make.

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
My experience is that if I'm afraid I might mess something up when I'm doing it, I usually do. It's a mind-set that almost ensures something will go wrong. Paint with confidence, not trepidation.
I would agree with that. I'll find a 4x8 sheet of hardboard and spray multiple coats of something on it, but its going to be a while.

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
That said, even if you decide to stay with a white screen I would recommend eventually painting over the Kilz2. It is a primer and not designed to be used as a top-coat. All my Kilz2 samples have visibility discolored over time (about 6 months) if not coated with regular paint. And while spraying will generally produce a smoother screen than rolling, BW/Scorpion/C&S can be rolled.
So, what if I were to mix up some Scorpion and roll it. Will it "act" much different than the Kilz2 from an application standpoint? My theory being, if I could satisfactorily roll the K2, surely I can do the same with Scorpion... If I am happy with the result, then perhaps I am done? If not, I can lightly sand and then spray a few coats on top next spring (or force myself to learn the Wagner sooner). Also, if I mix up enough to both roll and spray, should it be fine to store the Scorpion for a few months in the can or is it best to use it soon after mixing? There's nothing in there that would make me think it can't be stored...

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
That is cool! For folks that don't know, you can control the panorama using your mouse and also zoom into and out of the image while right-clicking the mouse.

Two things: 1. I didn't know you were a member of identical septuplets, and 2. I don't know what you or your brother are doing to that right-hand speaker, but it's unseemly.
As you can guess, the image is stitched together from multiple shots and I am in each one. As I told my kids, Daddy is pretending to climb on the speaker. I will say, I love my Paradigm Studio speakers though...

Oh, don't forget to look down.
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post #23 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 10:03 AM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

Quote:
1canuck2 wrote: View Post
The most I was able to do was fill it with water and spray my brick work. I've never really worked with a sprayer before. I am basically going to cover every surface in the room with plastic drop cloth since I am very afraid of the mess it could make.
Perhaps Mech can address this soon, but I have never used the Wagner CS. All I can say is that my compressor-feed HVLP normally has around a two foot maxium area beyond the screen that has any danger of getting liquid paint over-spray on it. Other items within about 8 feet might get some paint DUST on them, but it literally is dust (as in very small droplets of paint that have dried before landing on the object). I understand your concern though, better safe than sorry!

I will also say that shooting plain water is much different than spraying thinned latex paint. The water will make a finer mist and a wider "fan". I have found that even properly thinned paint will only have 1/2 to 3/4 the fan width of water through my HVLP gun.

Quote:
So, what if I were to mix up some Scorpion and roll it. Will it "act" much different than the Kilz2 from an application standpoint? My theory being, if I could satisfactorily roll the K2, surely I can do the same with Scorpion... If I am happy with the result, then perhaps I am done? If not, I can lightly sand and then spray a few coats on top next spring (or force myself to learn the Wagner sooner). Also, if I mix up enough to both roll and spray, should it be fine to store the Scorpion for a few months in the can or is it best to use it soon after mixing? There's nothing in there that would make me think it can't be stored...
Scorpion™ is a bit more than a full "N step" down from Kilz2 and will appear visibly darker in room light, but compared to the dark brown of your wall it will still be very light. You will get darker blacks with Scorpion™ than with Kilz2, and also richer colors. How much difference there is varies from person to person due to personal preferences and perceptions. I don't think you would regret using Scorpion™.

Scorpion™ is a reflective mix and will require a bit more care in rolling that Kilz2, but not an inordinate amount (it ain't rocket science ). Many have rolled BW/Scorpion/C&S with no problems; And if you like the appearance of Scorpion™, you're done!

BW/Scorpion/C&S stores just like regular latex paint (don't let it freeze!). Some have reported a problem storing BW mixes that used Black Jack Aluminum, but BJA isn't an authorized BW ingredient.

Quote:
As you can guess, the image is stitched together from multiple shots and I am in each one. As I told my kids, Daddy is pretending to climb on the speaker. I will say, I love my Paradigm Studio speakers though...

Oh, don't forget to look down.
I had a bit of fun at the end of my last post, I hope you didn't mind. That really is a cool panorama, I enjoyed it very much! Yep, I looked down... building a HT is exhausting work!
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post #24 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Perhaps Mech can address this soon, but I have never used the Wagner CS. All I can say is that my compressor-feed HVLP normally has around a two foot maxium area beyond the screen that has any danger of getting liquid paint over-spray on it. Other items within about 8 feet might get some paint DUST on them, but it literally is dust (as in very small droplets of paint that have dried before landing on the object). I understand your concern though, better safe than sorry!

I will also say that shooting plain water is much different than spraying thinned latex paint. The water will make a finer mist and a wider "fan". I have found that even properly thinned paint will only have 1/2 to 3/4 the fan width of water through my HVLP gun.
Okay, good to know. I ran out of time this summer with all the other stuff to do... I certainly got far enough to be able to impress people with a demo of my HT and they certainly think its done, but I am not done yet... Mostly I have to bite the bullet on a custom formula and build my velvet frame for the screen (a bit uncertain about how to hang it, plus velvet is bloody expensive...)

Mech? Any tips on using the Wagner Control Spray? Should I be scared?

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Scorpion™ is a bit more than a full "N step" down from Kilz2 and will appear visibly darker in room light, but compared to the dark brown of your wall it will still be very light. You will get darker blacks with Scorpion™ than with Kilz2, and also richer colors. How much difference there is varies from person to person due to personal preferences and perceptions. I don't think you would regret using Scorpion™.
Ye, I have done an agonizing amount of reading both here and AVS. I am set on a Shack formula as opposed to some of the formulas touted at AVS, and am really picking Scorpion as the compromise between C&S and BW since I am scared BW will be too dark and C&S not enough of a diff from the Kilz2.

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Scorpion™ is a reflective mix and will require a bit more care in rolling that Kilz2, but not an inordinate amount (it ain't rocket science ). Many have rolled BW/Scorpion/C&S with no problems; And if you like the appearance of Scorpion™, you're done!
Well, I feel like I am wimping out, but maybe I'll just roll it. I am a dab hand at rolling since I have painted most of my house (and am a three coats of paint guy). If I do not like the results, then it will force me to practice with the Wagner after which I will lightly sand the rolled Scorpion and spray over top.

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
BW/Scorpion/C&S stores just like regular latex paint (don't let it freeze!). Some have reported a problem storing BW mixes that used Black Jack Aluminum, but BJA isn't an authorized BW ingredient.
I have all my paints stored in a room in basement, so no risk of freezing.

A while back we were PMing about a new formula for Scorpion based on C&S plus an N6 paint, did that go anywhere?

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
I had a bit of fun at the end of my last post, I hope you didn't mind. That really is a cool panorama, I enjoyed it very much! Yep, I looked down... building a HT is exhausting work!
I don't mind at all, the picture itself is supposed to be fun, as well as a neat demo of both my HT and my friend's abilities with a fish eye lens. I believe he wrote the algorithm that stitches the pictures together.
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post #25 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 10:41 AM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

My two cents is that yes spraying results in a smoother surface, but as much as some people insist and say it is, it isn't required in order to get an exceptional screen. I have been saying this for years and it is true... If you can paint a wall or room in your house then you can paint a screen.

I find it baffling that so many people can paint a wall without a single roller mark, but then are scared off when it comes to screens. Probably the biggest possible problem is that people may be over working the paint when it comes to painting a screen.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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post #26 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

Well now I am all excited to go with a custom formula again... Didn't take much to get there. I am going to try rollering it first.

So I can get the ingredients for C&S at Michaels/Home Depot. But I can't seem to easily find the alu needed for BW. Should I just try C&S first? How different will it be than the Kilz2?

Would I be able to roller two coats of C&S on my 126" diag screen and have enough left over to do a Scorpion? Or should I not bother and go straight to Scorpion. I am most confident it is Scorpion for me, I just don;t know about getting all the ingredients. Unless you have the "easier" Scorpion formula ready for me to try Harp...
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post #27 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 12:06 PM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
Well, I feel like I am wimping out, but maybe I'll just roll it. I am a dab hand at rolling since I have painted most of my house (and am a three coats of paint guy). If I do not like the results, then it will force me to practice with the Wagner after which I will lightly sand the rolled Scorpion and spray over top.
You are not wimping out by rolling instead of spraying! I prefer to spray instead of roll just because I think it's easier and a bit faster. Others feel differently, so it again comes down to personal preference.

Mixes that are sprayed on are by necessity thinner than most mixes that are rolled, so they naturally level out better than most rolled ones; but a mix that is rolled on with a good self-leveling paint and a high quality low nap roller is many times indistinguishable in use from a sprayed screen.

The main proponent of spraying at AVS is also the main proponent of mixes that are very high in mica content. Such mixes are almost impossible to roll because of so much mica.

Quote:
A while back we were PMing about a new formula for Scorpion based on C&S plus an N6 paint, did that go anywhere?
In fact, yes! Several new mixes are in the works that are showing a lot of promise, but have yet to be proven out by large-panel testing - and we are all about testing here. The sad fact is that myself, and others on our development team, got precious little done on the mix front this summer due to a number of factors that I will just lump together and call "Life Situations". A number of health issues arose (one very serious, but the prognosis is good). We don't do this for a living so it takes longer to get things done. Sometimes "spare time" is very hard to find.

It turns out that the mix we were talking about via PM may also have an International version available as well (although the ingredients will be different and it will have a different name). A full range of N values will be achievable from C&S to below BW (bottom N value not determined at this time).

While it is possible to create literally any N value of mix in this system (from N9 to ~N6), this can't reliably be done during mixing. Paint dries darker than it looks when wet so making a shade "by eye" when mixing the two paints (one light, one dark) just doesn't work. We have also determined in our testing that it makes little sense to have mixes any closer than about 0.5 N value apart, any smaller "N difference" is almost imperceptible in a screen.
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post #28 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 12:09 PM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
Unless you have the "easier" Scorpion formula ready for me to try Harp...
I'll recheck some things and get back to you soon.
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post #29 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
In fact, yes! Several new mixes are in the works that are showing a lot of promise, but have yet to be proven out by large-panel testing - and we are all about testing here. The sad fact is that myself, and others on our development team, got precious little done on the mix front this summer due to a number of factors that I will just lump together and call "Life Situations". A number of health issues arose (one very serious, but the prognosis is good). We don't do this for a living so it takes longer to get things done. Sometimes "spare time" is very hard to find.
Sorry to hear about medical issues... as for spare time, all I am doing is trying to finish my HT and have been unable to get the spare time for that, so I can fully sympathize. I almost feel guilty if a weekend goes by and I didn't do something to progress things along - I say "almost", because last weekend I watched two movies with my older two kids and played a couple of hours Beatles Rock Band as a family down there, so there's not too much guilt when we are actually thoroughly enjoying the space

I for one appreciate (and am somewhat blown away by) the dedication you guys have to all this. You have already put in enough effort/hours to be guilt free, peons like me must simply wait, or get developing our own formulas. I am happy to contribute in some way if I can, such as being an early guinea pig for one of the formulas, I don;t really know how else to contribute other than sing your praises...

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
It turns out that the mix we were talking about via PM may also have an International version available as well (although the ingredients will be different and it will have a different name). A full range of N values will be achievable from C&S to below BW (bottom N value not determined at this time).
International version? Does it speak with a foreign accent? Le Scorpion? Das Scorpion? I take it you mean made with products more readily available outside the US. I am in Canada. We certainly have some of the same mainstream paint brands: Behr, Benjamin Moore, etc. Its the more "exotic" ingredients I couldn't find (e.g. AAA). Delta was at our Michael's last time I checked.

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
While it is possible to create literally any N value of mix in this system (from N9 to ~N6), this can't reliably be done during mixing. Paint dries darker than it looks when wet so making a shade "by eye" when mixing the two paints (one light, one dark) just doesn't work. We have also determined in our testing that it makes little sense to have mixes any closer than about 0.5 N value apart, any smaller "N difference" is almost imperceptible in a screen.
Awww, I was hoping for an N8.274 for my screen...

Out of interest, is it linear, the amount of dark you add?
i.e. If I start with an N9 C&S. Do I add 1 "measure" of N6 per 0.5 N level I want to go down, or is it more complicated than that i.e. 0.5 goes to N8.5, 1.2 goes to N8, 2.1 goes to N7.5?

If it matters, I'd be shooting for an N8.
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post #30 of 40 Old 11-09-09, 02:57 PM
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Re: Help me pick a DIY paint

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1canuck2 wrote: View Post
I for one appreciate (and am somewhat blown away by) the dedication you guys have to all this. You have already put in enough effort/hours to be guilt free, peons like me must simply wait, or get developing our own formulas. I am happy to contribute in some way if I can, such as being an early guinea pig for one of the formulas, I don;t really know how else to contribute other than sing your praises...
If you are interested, I should be able to come up with a N8 version of the experimental mix using standard C&S™ and a N6 paint, but it might take 2 or 3 days (I have to wait for the paint to dry and cure before taking spectro readings). Keep in mind this mix is untested under projection.

Quote:
International version? Does it speak with a foreign accent? Le Scorpion? Das Scorpion? I take it you mean made with products more readily available outside the US. I am in Canada. We certainly have some of the same mainstream paint brands: Behr, Benjamin Moore, etc. Its the more "exotic" ingredients I couldn't find (e.g. AAA). Delta was at our Michael's last time I checked.
The International version would use all Liquitex artist paints; they are available in most countries.

Quote:
Out of interest, is it linear, the amount of dark you add?
i.e. If I start with an N9 C&S. Do I add 1 "measure" of N6 per 0.5 N level I want to go down, or is it more complicated than that i.e. 0.5 goes to N8.5, 1.2 goes to N8, 2.1 goes to N7.5?

If it matters, I'd be shooting for an N8.
Nope, it's not linear, and that is a potential problem with these mixes. When we develop a mix we try to make things as simple as possible for the end-user. Of all our mixes so far only Scorpion™ N8.5 needs to be measured in any way; the other mixes are just emptying paint cans or bottles in a bucket and stirring. We like simple, simple is good. The problem is that designing simple isn't so simple.

To get a N8 with the C&S™/N6 mix you will probably have to measure out the N6 paint.
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