Cream&Sugar™ Ultra - Page 12 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #111 of 161 Old 11-26-13, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Hi Neil. Sorry for missing your questions (and many others as well) on the forum, but family health issues have taken a turn for the worse so the time I can put into this forum has decreased dramatically and this may not change for some time. My sincerest apologies to all. I will still do what I can though.

I have used ArgyllCMS for spot readings and the Spotread -i setting will let you choose D65 for CIE readings. I don't believe the i1Pro2 lamp is natively D50 (but I could be wrong); I know the I1Pro's lamp that I use isn't, it's listed simply as "tungsten".

My custom spreadsheet basically uses the Lindbloom spreadsheet to do all math calculations from the raw spectral data, including generation of RGB data. I did not personally write all of my spreadsheet so I hesitate to share it, sorry. There is a free program called OpenRGB that I use a lot as well that gives readings in a number of color spaces including RGB.

The BOC samples I have are all about N9 and have no gloss to them at all so I would guess that their gain would be the same, or very close to, a Lambertian surface the same color. According to OpenRGB that gain would be ~0.76 (the Y value of the XYZ reading).

The purpose of adding aluminum or mica flakes to a paint or paint mix is to increase reflection over what gloss can do alone. Aluminum is better for projection screens because it is an opaque solid so light cannot be refracted by it. Mica flakes of the size used in "metallic" or "pearl" paints are transparent and there WILL be some refraction (color shifting) caused by that. That refraction can be controlled by using enough opaque paint (white or gray) to absorb most of that refraction. That is the real difference between C&S™ Ultra and the mixes promoted on AVS. The AVS mica-based mixes even make this refraction worse by using clear polyurethane to make their mixes even more translucent thus increasing the refractive properties of the mix. Our mixes (even the mica-based C&S™ Ultra) have never hot spotted to my recollection or shown other negative refraction attributes. Mech is the one who can do gain testing and this hasn't been done with the new Black Widow Ultra™ mixes at all, and as I recall only the on-axis gain of C&S™ Ultra was done (about 1.0).

The one thing you can be sure of (and please test this to your hearts content) is that the AVS mixes (if you decide to test them) WILL have a noticeable viewing cone. They like to "prove" this isn't so by taking screen photos, but they many times forget to mention that they use the AUTO settings on their camera which means that those side shots that show an equal brilliance ARE compensating for the dimmer image.

Black Widow Ultra™ and C&S™ Ultra have increased on-axis gains compared to regular paints the same color. This difference will diminish as the gloss level of the regular paint increases. Also, while definitely noticeable, the added gain of our reflectively enhanced mixes doesn't make a night and day difference as we wanted to keep any viewing cone minimal. If there is enough interest in higher gain mixes that are close to hot spotting we may go there as well, but our interests have been more toward a large viewing audience that demands a minimal viewing cone.
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post #112 of 161 Old 01-06-14, 03:24 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

I am excited to finish my DIY screen!! I am using a BOC from Joann's and spraying it with C&S Ultra. I have made a frame and mounted and stretched the BOC to a 102" 16:9 fixed screen. It is now time to paint it.

One thing I noticed after I mixed the paints (as I always do ) is that the base paint in the Valspar Signature paint that I bought was "Base A" (Ultra White) on a Mate finish. I came back here to try to verify this was the correct base with the new Signature series, but I couldn't find anything that said "Base A / Ultra White / Mate", so I was a little concerned. I tested the mixture on a surface and it did look pretty flat to me. Also the tint of the paint (base+115-.67) did look white with a slight pinkish hue as mentioned earlier in the thread.

If anyone else tries this C&S Ultra, trust me, you do want to follow the instructions and water down the Liquitex BASICS Silver before mixing it with the Valspar paint (especially if it is cold, it is winter here in Iowa), unless you like stirring paint for 20 mins straight and would like to find out what muscles on your hand are the ones you don't use very often .

One noob question I have: What gain would this mix give you if any?

I intend to use this 102" C&S Ultra screen with a PT-8000U, in a light controlled environment (basement that I'm finishing with one room being dedicated to HT) but at times I would like to have some ambient light. Should I stick with just the C&S Ultra, or add a little N6 to it?

Last edited by ovillegas; 01-07-14 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Forgot to ask..
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post #113 of 161 Old 01-07-14, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
ovillegas wrote: View Post
I am excited to finish my DIY screen!! I am using a BOC from Joann's and spraying it with C&S Ultra. I have made a frame and mounted and stretched the BOC to a 102" 16:9 fixed screen. It is now time to paint it.

One thing I noticed after I mixed the paints (as I always do ) is that the base paint in the Valspar Signature paint that I bought was "Base A" (Ultra White) on a Mate finish. I came back here to try to verify this was the correct base with the new Signature series, but I couldn't find anything that said "Base A / Ultra White / Mate", so I was a little concerned. I tested the mixture on a surface and it did look pretty flat to me. Also the tint of the paint (base+115-.67) did look white with a slight pinkish hue as mentioned earlier in the thread.
I will have to check on this to be sure, but I believe you have the correct base for C&S™ Ultra.

Quote:
If anyone else tries this C&S Ultra, trust me, you do want to follow the instructions and water down the Liquitex BASICS Silver before mixing it with the Valspar paint (especially if it is cold, it is winter here in Iowa), unless you like stirring paint for 20 mins straight and would like to find out what muscles on your hand are the ones you don't use very often .
Yep! The stirring required should be done with a "squirrel cage" mixing attachment for a hand drill. Use low speeds.

Quote:
One noob question I have: What gain would this mix give you if any?
The on-axis gain for C&S™ Ultra has been measured at 1.0. This might not sound like a whole lot of gain, but know that a regular flat N9 paint would have a gain of about 0.8.

Quote:
I intend to use this 102" C&S Ultra screen with a PT-8000U, in a light controlled environment (basement that I'm finishing with one room being dedicated to HT) but at times I would like to have some ambient light. Should I stick with just the C&S Ultra, or add a little N6 to it?
This is where things get really subjective. Keep in mind that the more N6 paint you add to C&S™ Ultra (producing an ersatz Elekta mix) the lower the gain will be, but the more the screen will absorb ambient light and give better black levels and richer colors.
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post #114 of 161 Old 01-09-14, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
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I will have to check on this to be sure, but I believe you have the correct base for C&S™ Ultra. Yep! The stirring required should be done with a "squirrel cage" mixing attachment for a hand drill. Use low speeds. The on-axis gain for C&S™ Ultra has been measured at 1.0. This might not sound like a whole lot of gain, but know that a regular flat N9 paint would have a gain of about 0.8. This is where things get really subjective. Keep in mind that the more N6 paint you add to C&S™ Ultra (producing an ersatz Elekta mix) the lower the gain will be, but the more the screen will absorb ambient light and give better black levels and richer colors.
Thanks for the reply!

I will give it a try without the N6, and if I decide it needs to be darker, then I'll add N6 to it.

PT-AE8000U | 105" DIY Screen | BDP-103D | Onkyo TX-NR838 | ZA5.3t mains | ZA5.3c Center | 4 ZA5.2s Surrounds | SVS PC13 Ultra | DSP1124p
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post #115 of 161 Old 01-09-14, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

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ovillegas wrote: View Post
Thanks for the reply!

I will give it a try without the N6, and if I decide it needs to be darker, then I'll add N6 to it.
I checked and you have the correct base.
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post #116 of 161 Old 01-14-14, 11:06 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Great!! Thank you for following up, I really appreciate it. This is one of the reasons why Home Theater Shack blows everything else out of the water!!!
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post #117 of 161 Old 04-09-14, 05:33 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Hi! Long time, no post, but I'm back.

I've been using a screen made with the original C&S formula since July 2008, but my sweetie recently tripped and fell against it while holding a black barbell, making a gouge and a few black paint streaks. I spackled the gouge and went looking for my old mix, which I'd used to patch a few spots over the years.

My original leftover mix was all dried out (and full of rust flecks from the paint can) - no real surprise after nearly six years - but I still have half a gallon of the Sherwin Williams Luminous White base in a plastic bucket covered with saran wrap held in place with a large rubber band.

A temporary patch I did with the pure SW LW is, of course, brighter - though that's only visible when in a bright area with no detail - which is also when the eye will generally be drawn away from the patch by detail somewhere else. It's quite obvious when the lights are on, however.

I do want to repaint the whole screen soon, even if no one else notices the patch during screenings.

If I mix leftover Sherwin Williams Luminous White with the new Liquitex BASICS Silver paint, would that make a decent C&S?

Finally, will that make enough to cover - with a roller - a screen area 9 1/2 feet wide by 5 1/3 feet high? One coat should be enough, since it's going over an existing C&S screen, though I might "prime" the patch - which is an irregular area less than 6 inches by 9 inches - by giving it a first coat of the mix to make for a more uniform final coat. I'm figuring on needing to cover about 51 square feet.

From this post, which calls for one ounce per square foot for all coats combined, it sounds like I would need a bit more than 51 ounces to be safe. Is that before or after adding the distilled water?

If I don't use the leftover Sherwin Williams I'm going to use a "not quite half a gallon" 30 oz can of the Valspar Signature (which is the same price as a quart!), with 30 oz of the Liquitex. How should the tint numbers for the Valspar be changed?

If the 0.67 is the amount, my calculation is that it should be 115-1.25625 for 30 oz of the Valspar. Am I right?

Last edited by Philnick; 04-11-14 at 11:46 AM.
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post #118 of 161 Old 04-13-14, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
Philnick wrote: View Post
If I mix leftover Sherwin Williams Luminous White with the new Liquitex BASICS Silver paint, would that make a decent C&S?
I think it would work, but we haven't tested SW 'Luminous White' base for making C&S™ Ultra.

Quote:
Finally, will that make enough to cover - with a roller - a screen area 9 1/2 feet wide by 5 1/3 feet high? One coat should be enough, since it's going over an existing C&S screen, though I might "prime" the patch - which is an irregular area less than 6 inches by 9 inches - by giving it a first coat of the mix to make for a more uniform final coat. I'm figuring on needing to cover about 51 square feet.

From this post, which calls for one ounce per square foot for all coats combined, it sounds like I would need a bit more than 51 ounces to be safe. Is that before or after adding the distilled water?
Yes, that 1 fl. oz. per square foot of screen includes the water. Also, this is just what I consider a truly safe amount of paint; many have gotten by using half that amount. Do you feel lucky?

I think priming the patch with a real primer would be the best bet since primer is meant to seal the substrate so the top-coat paint won't soak in. If the screen has already been coated with original C&S™, and no filler has been used to patch it, then you could probably get by without the use of primer.

Quote:
If I don't use the leftover Sherwin Williams I'm going to use a "not quite half a gallon" 30 oz can of the Valspar Signature (which is the same price as a quart!), with 30 oz of the Liquitex. How should the tint numbers for the Valspar be changed?

If the 0.67 is the amount, my calculation is that it should be 115-1.25625 for 30 oz of the Valspar. Am I right?
You mean you would be using 30 fl. oz. of base and adding 30 fl. oz. of LBS? That would make 60 fl. oz. to which at least 25% distilled water should be added to thin it. That would be 15 fl. oz. which would create a screen mix of 75 fl. oz..

The 0.67 quantity of 115 tint is for 32 fl. oz. of base paint, dropping the amount to 30 fl. oz. would bring down the tint needed to 0.628, but honestly I wouldn't worry about that small a difference.
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post #119 of 161 Old 05-12-14, 05:22 PM
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Thumbs down Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Has anyone found a source for the Liquitex BASICS Silver paint in jars rather than tubes?

I've been searching for weeks, since I'd much rather use the "pour in some of the distilled water, put the cap on the jar, and swish it around" method to get all of the silver paint, instead of using a syringe to inject water into each of eight four ounce tubes.

So far, I haven't found anyplace that has the 8 ounce jars.

Has anyone here found a source isn't "back ordered"?
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post #120 of 161 Old 05-14-14, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
Philnick wrote: View Post
Has anyone found a source for the Liquitex BASICS Silver paint in jars rather than tubes?

I've been searching for weeks, since I'd much rather use the "pour in some of the distilled water, put the cap on the jar, and swish it around" method to get all of the silver paint, instead of using a syringe to inject water into each of eight four ounce tubes.

So far, I haven't found anyplace that has the 8 ounce jars.

Has anyone here found a source isn't "back ordered"?
Sorry for the lateness of this response, but life isn't allowing me as much time on the forum nowadays.

Amazon has the Liquitex BASICS Silver in 8 oz. tubs (actually sold by Create Art).
http://www.amazon.com/Liquitex-Basic...s+silver+paint

PEARL also has it for less money (unless they charge more for shipping).
http://www.pearlpaint.com/shop-Liqui...8825_8824.html

I also see that some places where it is out of stock will have some in about a week.
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