Cream&Sugar™ Ultra - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 161 Old 06-09-11, 09:18 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Dave,

As a user of the original C&S and the Panasonic PT-AE2000U, I can tell you a few things:

1) You're putting together a dynamite combination for image quality.

Try the projector's "Color 1" setting - it's reputed to be the one that matches Hollywood standards. I found, when I calibrated with DVE, that I only needed to give it a tiny red push - and I understand that the newer Pannys may not even need that. With the projector at the back of the room, about 13 feet from the screen, zoomed to cover an area about 9 1/2' by a little over 5' high, I run it in Economy and at High Altitude to extend bulb life without noticing any dimming or fan noise - and I'm only sitting a few feet in front of the projector.

2) You should avoid using an upside-down mount for the projector.

If you read through the PT-AE2000U thread over at AV Science forums, there's a design problem in the PT-AE line of projectors. The three color filters are held in rectangular frames that are metal on their sides and bottom but their tops are just strips of adhesive tape!

Mount the machine upside down and run it for a while and the heat softens the glue of the tape, and then gravity pulls a filter down and out of position.

The do-it-yourselfers over there have posted instructions for taking the projector apart and fixing it when this happens, but the best solution is prevention. Mount the projector right-side up!

I use a six foot tall wire frame shelf similar to Metro shelving that I got from a local hardware store. You can find a link to find something like it at Amazon on the site I just launched on how to set up a home theater - http://PRO-Home-Theaters.com - on the page called "To House and Connect" (I link to this forum there for folks who want to paint their own screens.)

Oh, and the projector pulls a lot of air in through it's back panel and blows warm air out the front, so don't put the shelves too closely spaced, since the PJ killed one AVR of mine that was mounted just an inch below the PJ by stealing the cool air it needed for its own ventilation.

Guess where the best place would be to put a tall shelf unit (which can also hold the rest of the electronics)? The back of the room. The only long cables you'll need this way will be the speaker wires. Since the screen is reflective, you can bounce your remotes off the screen to control the equipment at the back of the room.

Phil

Last edited by Philnick; 06-10-11 at 10:23 AM.
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post #32 of 161 Old 06-16-11, 04:35 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

I went to buy the valspar flat enamel in base 1 to use with the 115 .67 tint c
ode and the resulting paint looked blue grey. When I came back on here to check this out I saw your post with the screen pics listed the base as ultrawhite. Could you tell me if the correct base for the valspar flat enamel is base1 or ultrawhite? Thanks.
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post #33 of 161 Old 06-16-11, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
grizzct wrote: View Post
I went to buy the valspar flat enamel in base 1 to use with the 115 .67 tint c
ode and the resulting paint looked blue grey. When I came back on here to check this out I saw your post with the screen pics listed the base as ultrawhite. Could you tell me if the correct base for the valspar flat enamel is base1 or ultrawhite? Thanks.
If your paint is blue-gray the store mixed it wrong. That's kind of hard to do, but it is far from impossible. The tinted paint should appear a very light pink since tint 115 is Magenta, but so little tint is used it barely colors the white paint.

All of the Valspar numbered bases (1, 2 and 4) are called ultra white, but they vary in how much paint is in the can (the more tint that is to be added to make a color the less actual white paint is in the can) and how much titanium dioxide (the white pigment) is in the base to start with.
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post #34 of 161 Old 06-16-11, 10:19 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Thanks for the info. The store only had base 4 and a quart can labeled flat enamel ultrawhite with no base number on it. In the gallon size they had a can labeled flat enamel base 1, so they used the same tint number and just quadrupled the amount. When they opened the base 1 can to tint it the color was a grey, not white. It looked slightly blue, and the magenta tint barely changed the color. I was asking about the ultrawhite vs the base 1 because they only had the base 4 and the can labeled ultrawhitw with no base number in the quart size. Do you have any pics of what the valspar paint should look like after its tinted?
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post #35 of 161 Old 06-17-11, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

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grizzct wrote: View Post
Thanks for the info. The store only had base 4 and a quart can labeled flat enamel ultrawhite with no base number on it. In the gallon size they had a can labeled flat enamel base 1, so they used the same tint number and just quadrupled the amount. When they opened the base 1 can to tint it the color was a grey, not white. It looked slightly blue, and the magenta tint barely changed the color. I was asking about the ultrawhite vs the base 1 because they only had the base 4 and the can labeled ultrawhitw with no base number in the quart size. Do you have any pics of what the valspar paint should look like after its tinted?
Quadrupling the tint formula to make a gallon should work just fine, I think they just made a mistake and used the wrong color tint; however, if the gallon of base 1 looked gray before tinting I suspect something was wrong with that can of paint from the beginning.

The can of paint without a base number was a full can of Valspar Ultra White with the max. amount of titanium dioxide in it. In a pinch you could probably use that base (no number) and tint it the same (115 - 0.67) instead of using base 1, but I highly recommend using base 1. Base 4 has quite a bit less paint in the can since it it designed to make dark colors all the way down to black so lots of room is provided for adding tint, and it has less TiO2, so it won't work. In theory the store computer can manipulate the tint data to compensate between bases, but the base color for C&S™ Ultra is so light that won't work.

Here is the color of the C&S™ Ultra base. Keep in mind that the color you actually see is determined by how well your computer monitor is calibrated. It is also hard to directly compare an emissive color swatch (the one below) to a paint sample which is a reflected color, but it should give you an idea of what to look for.

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post #36 of 161 Old 06-17-11, 10:31 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Thanks for the help harpmaker. I went back to Lowes and had them open another can of base 1 and it was white this time. They agreed to exchange it for the one I bought with the wrong colored base. Also, just wanted to say thanks for all the work you guys do on these DIY paints. I'm a happy two time black widow user and I'm looking forward to experimenting with C&S Ultra.
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post #37 of 161 Old 06-18-11, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Glad to be of assistance grizzct, and thanks also for the kind words. We don't make a penny off any of these mixes in any way, shape or form and I admit it is nice to hear that our efforts are appreciated by those that try them. Good luck with your experimenting with C&S™ Ultra.
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post #38 of 161 Old 06-21-11, 12:39 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Harp, Phil;

I have been mulling over my HT project since we last conversed on 6-5-2011. After further research and consideration, I have decided that I need to change my screen location from the back of my fire place with an 8' width limitation, to another wall in my multipurpose room due to seating layout issues, projector positioning considerations and screen size limitations. I am now looking at a CIH 122" diagonal cinema scope screen (9.4'wide)for the largest majority of anticipated use which will still give me an 89" x 48 " 16:9 screen.

Since my project is 200 miles from my primary home and I am getting ready for carpet installation, I have decided it will be worth a trip there to confirm the the best layout, make any needed wiring modifications, establish projector location and also conduct a test of the rooms lighting conditions to help determine the best screen option.

I am interested in your take on the expected performance comparison between the C&S Ultra and the Wilson Art laminate in terms of the important metrics including viewing cone and durability (grandchildren). I can work with the greys if needed for the lighting conditions in the room. My room is a little over 20' wide and 19' deep with front row seating at 10' (four recliners) and second row (four recliners on a riser) at 14'. There will be other secondary seating outboard of these seats (+ kids on the floor). On the screen wall, the left side wall is about 5' away from the screen and there is essentially no right side wall. The ceiling is vaulted and slopes up and away at 3/12 pitch from the 7' high screen wall (screen will be about 4" from ceiling to 2'8" off the floor). Ceiling is light tan, walls are medium tan, carpet is medium biege. One idea for expected reflected light from the ceiling would be to either paint the ceiling darker in a semi circle in front of the screen or come out about 3-4' feet from the screen and put a black ceiling curtain hanging down from the sloped ceiling, 12' wide or so, with the bottom edge just above the screen (paint the area behind this curtain dark), when viewed from the back row of seats on the riser.

Phil, I searched a little and could not find the info on the design problem with AE line of projectors for mounting upside down. Is there confirmation that this problem is still present in the 4000? Trying to decide between 1. table mounting the projector between back row seats with lens at a 13' throw, 2. mounting the projector on the entertainment center base cabinet counter top (back wall), right side up at about 3' off the floor, 17.5' throw, or 3. mounting the projector upside down on the entertainment center upper cabinet at 6' 8"' high, 17. 5 ' throw.

The issue with option #2 is there is a walking aisle between the back row of seating and the entertainment center that leads to a bathroom and three bedrooms. I understand that option 3 might be better for gaming and my seating would not need to be split, however, I still plan to place a removable flat screen display on my center stage speaker floor cabinet in front of the PJ screen for daytime viewing and gaming (this room is very bright during the day because of adjacent great room and large net window area) so option 1 is still viable and may be preferable to 3, especially if I could run the projector in economy mode to extend lamp life.

I am zeroing in on my redesign of the room and looking for suggestions, especially on paint versus laminate. I am a home builder and cabinet maker, so none of this is particularly difficult. With either paint or laminate, I would likely use 1/2' or 5/8" MDF, 5' x 10" sheet, cut oversize to accommodate the black velvet screen frame. I would back the MDF with a secondary frame 3/4" by 3 1/2", for mounting strength and to help keep the screen flat.

Is the C&S Ultra significantly more impressive in terms of overall performance? Will it have a wider viewing cone? The durability of laminate is appealing. My current home made portable screen with a cover, has a few marks, dings and hand prints. We have cleaned some of the marks to some degree.

I just want to avoid having to do something twice if possible.

Thanks much.

Dave
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post #39 of 161 Old 06-22-11, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
abby3347 wrote: View Post
I am interested in your take on the expected performance comparison between the C&S Ultra and the Wilson Art laminate in terms of the important metrics including viewing cone and durability (grandchildren). I can work with the greys if needed for the lighting conditions in the room. My room is a little over 20' wide and 19' deep with front row seating at 10' (four recliners) and second row (four recliners on a riser) at 14'. There will be other secondary seating outboard of these seats (+ kids on the floor).
DW laminate (gain of about 1.3 IIRC) will provide a slightly brighter image than a C&S™ Ultra screen (gain about 1.0), but it will also have a narrower viewing angle than C&S™ Ultra. Using C&S™ Ultra will give you a wider viewing angle (which it sounds like you would want) and a bit of help dealing with small amounts of ambient light since it is technically really a very light gray.

While we have not done any destructive testing of screens (although that would be an interesting project) I would expect C&S™ Ultra to be fairly tough since it is a combo of flat enamel and artist acrylic paints. Laminate is pretty tough as well, but if it is ever damaged it's almost impossible to repair for the average DIY'er. The main problem, as I understand it, with laminate is that it can scratch during cleaning affecting the level of gloss from one area of the screen to the next, and that it is quite brittle. Mech and Wbassett have both had laminate screens so perhaps they might have something to add here, but it might be a while before you hear from them since Mech is on vacation and Wbassett is just plain busy.

Quote:
On the screen wall, the left side wall is about 5' away from the screen and there is essentially no right side wall. The ceiling is vaulted and slopes up and away at 3/12 pitch from the 7' high screen wall (screen will be about 4" from ceiling to 2'8" off the floor). Ceiling is light tan, walls are medium tan, carpet is medium biege. One idea for expected reflected light from the ceiling would be to either paint the ceiling darker in a semi circle in front of the screen or come out about 3-4' feet from the screen and put a black ceiling curtain hanging down from the sloped ceiling, 12' wide or so, with the bottom edge just above the screen (paint the area behind this curtain dark), when viewed from the back row of seats on the riser.
Yeah, only having 4" between the top of the screen and the light colored ceiling is going to be a problem. Of the two solutions you are considering I think the black curtain would work best.


Quote:
Phil, I searched a little and could not find the info on the design problem with AE line of projectors for mounting upside down. Is there confirmation that this problem is still present in the 4000? Trying to decide between 1. table mounting the projector between back row seats with lens at a 13' throw, 2. mounting the projector on the entertainment center base cabinet counter top (back wall), right side up at about 3' off the floor, 17.5' throw, or 3. mounting the projector upside down on the entertainment center upper cabinet at 6' 8"' high, 17. 5 ' throw.
I would recommend keeping the PJ as close to the screen as possible to get as bright an image as possible.

Quote:
I am zeroing in on my redesign of the room and looking for suggestions, especially on paint versus laminate. I am a home builder and cabinet maker, so none of this is particularly difficult. With either paint or laminate, I would likely use 1/2' or 5/8" MDF, 5' x 10" sheet, cut oversize to accommodate the black velvet screen frame. I would back the MDF with a secondary frame 3/4" by 3 1/2", for mounting strength and to help keep the screen flat.
I would also recommend priming the rear surface and edges of the MDF to help seal it against moisture transfer and warping.

Quote:
Is the C&S Ultra significantly more impressive in terms of overall performance? Will it have a wider viewing cone? The durability of laminate is appealing.
Thanks much.
Screen performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it also depends on what screen aspect we are talking about. We can tell you how much light a screen will reflect to your eyes, what gain it has (if we've measured it), and give you more than a wild guess at how much ambient light it will absorb; but ultimately it comes down to viewer preference. DW makes a dandy screen, but it is a white screen and any ambient light will hurt image contrast and color depth. C&S™ Ultra is a paint mix and thus it can be darkened if necessary by adding some N6 or N5 paint so it can be customized to your needs.
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post #40 of 161 Old 06-22-11, 10:25 PM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Harp,

Thank you very much for the great advice.

Dave
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