Cream&Sugar™ Ultra - Page 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #41 of 161 Old 06-23-11, 07:36 PM
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John
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Screen performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it also depends on what screen aspect we are talking about. We can tell you how much light a screen will reflect to your eyes, what gain it has (if we've measured it), and give you more than a wild guess at how much ambient light it will absorb; but ultimately it comes down to viewer preference. DW makes a dandy screen, but it is a white screen and any ambient light will hurt image contrast and color depth. C&S™ Ultra is a paint mix and thus it can be darkened if necessary by adding some N6 or N5 paint so it can be customized to your needs.
Harp,

Are there formulas for how much N5 or N6 to add to get other N shades with C&S Ultra?

Also, is the silver in C&S Ultra finer than the AAA Fine?

Thanks,

JSS
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post #42 of 161 Old 06-23-11, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Don
 
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
maxmercy wrote: View Post
Harp,

Are there formulas for how much N5 or N6 to add to get other N shades with C&S Ultra?
For adding N6 gray paint to darken C&S™ Ultra you could use the amounts given in the Elektra™ thread. The N6 gray was needed for making Elektra™ because the old Craft Smart metallic Silver had relatively large reflective flakes in it and as the mix got darker they needed to be diluted. This is not the case with the Liquitex BASICS Silver and I will be working on changing the "shade adjuster" paint from N6 to N5 to make the mix comparable to a new line of mixes coming that can be made in just about any country in the world. Liquitex has a N5 paint in the BASICS line.

Quote:
Also, is the silver in C&S Ultra finer than the AAA Fine?
While I haven't compared them under a microscope yet, I believe the answer is yes. The mica flakes in Liq. BASICS Silver are way less effective at reflecting light than the metallic aluminum flakes in AAA-F, and I do believe the AAA-F flakes are a bit larger as well, but not near as large as the aluminum coated polymer flakes in the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver. This is why more LBS must be used to make C&S™ Ultra (a 50/50 mix of base and silver).

Quote:
Thanks,

JSS
Glad to be of assistance!
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post #43 of 161 Old 06-24-11, 08:15 AM
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John
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Posts: 76
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Harp,

Thanks, keep us updated!!! Once you guys get a reliable way to do C&S Ultra down to N7.5 or so, I may change my screen to it.....right now I am plain N7 OTS (Glidden Veil).

The contributions to DIYers in this section of the forum are quite underrated, you guys have done very impressive work!

JSS
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post #44 of 161 Old 01-04-12, 12:51 AM
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Thank you Harpmaster for taking the time to post such mixes as C&S Ultra.

I've had an Optima hd65 and a greywolf screen that came with it for several years. I never liked the narrow viewing cone that came with the greywolf II retro-reflective high gain screen and always wanted to try a diy painted screen when the opportunity presented itself. I moved recently to a new house and decided from my research and the fact that I live in Canada to try your latest C&S Ultra mix.
I wanted to make it a bit darker and followed the Elektra N6 tint idea.

So far I have done one coat today, and wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I've bought:
-16 oz of Liquitex Basic Silver
-16 oz of Bahr PP100 (Ultra Pure White Flat Premium Plus, the HD rep said it has replaced 1850?) tinted to ppg bermuda biege
-8 oz of Bahr ul204 tinted to N6

I've split all the ingredients above in half and done the first coat.
Things that concern me are the colour was a bit more biege/red push than grey. the behr pp100 had this colour fairly strongly with the bermuda beige tint. I worry that the pp100 tinted to bermuda biege wasn't the right thing to do?
I know the Valspar or vupe is to be tinted bb 427-w, so I assumed the behr upw was to be tinted to bermuda biege as well.
Other concerns were that the formula hd had to tint to bb from pp100 differed from the old 1850 to bb tint listed on the forums.

I'll post some pics of the paints/formulas used for the mix and some of the 1st coat.
Please let me know if it looks like i'm on the right track, or if I should get some vupe and tint it at Lowes. My wife is taking a trip to the USA tomorrow and they have a Lowe's on their way.

I was shooting to get an N8.4-N8.7 with my mix.
I used 8 fl oz of pp100 tinted + 8 fl of of liquitex basics silver + 4oz of distilled water + 1.67 (50ml) of ul204 N6


I've attached some pics and referenced behr silver screen, I believe is N8.3 as a reference.
The first photo was shot with auto white balance, the rest were with flash. All painted substrates on the left are my first coat thus far.
-autowbdsc05442.jpg

-dsc05437.jpg

-dsc05438.jpg

-dsc05440.jpg

-flashdsc05441.jpg

-flashmacrodsc05444.jpg

-flashwidescreendsc05445.jpg

Any Help or encouragement would be appreciated

Thank you

Last edited by bisch; 01-04-12 at 12:55 AM. Reason: more details
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post #45 of 161 Old 01-04-12, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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Don
 
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
bisch wrote: View Post
Thank you Harpmaster for taking the time to post such mixes as C&S Ultra.
No problem. We try to create screen mixes and offer advice so that people who want to make their own screens don't lose a thing compared to commercial screens.

Quote:
I've had an Optima hd65 and a greywolf screen that came with it for several years. I never liked the narrow viewing cone that came with the greywolf II retro-reflective high gain screen and always wanted to try a diy painted screen when the opportunity presented itself. I moved recently to a new house and decided from my research and the fact that I live in Canada to try your latest C&S Ultra mix.
I wanted to make it a bit darker and followed the Elektra N6 tint idea.
Darkening C&S™ Ultra with N6 gray paint to get a darker screen will work fine.

Quote:
So far I have done one coat today, and wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I've bought:
-16 oz of Liquitex Basic Silver
-16 oz of Bahr PP100 (Ultra Pure White Flat Premium Plus, the HD rep said it has replaced 1850?) tinted to ppg bermuda biege ----- NO
-8 oz of Bahr ul204 tinted to N6

I've split all the ingredients above in half and done the first coat.
Things that concern me are the colour was a bit more biege/red push than grey. the behr pp100 had this colour fairly strongly with the bermuda beige tint. I worry that the pp100 tinted to bermuda biege wasn't the right thing to do?
I know the Valspar or vupe is to be tinted bb 427-w, so I assumed the behr upw was to be tinted to bermuda biege as well.
Other concerns were that the formula hd had to tint to bb from pp100 differed from the old 1850 to bb tint listed on the forums.
You are using the WRONG base for making C&S™ Ultra. The Bermuda Beige base is for making our Black Widow™ mix and is causing your C&S™ Ultra attempt to be way to red-yellow. If you can't get the right base for C&S™ Ultra it still makes a near-neutral mix (more neutral than many commercial screens) if you just use untinted white paint as the base.

I'll have to double check this info to be 100% sure, but I believe the C&S™ Ultra base tint formula to use with Behr paint is V - 5/384 oz., although from your photo of the Behr jar it seems that they have changed the names of their tints. The base color you want for making C&S™ Ultra using Behr paint is 5/384 oz. of Magenta tint added to a QUART of #1850 (or equivalent). This is such a small about of tint that they can't accurately make it in the 8 oz. sample jar.

Quote:
I'll post some pics of the paints/formulas used for the mix and some of the 1st coat.
Please let me know if it looks like i'm on the right track, or if I should get some vupe and tint it at Lowes. My wife is taking a trip to the USA tomorrow and they have a Lowe's on their way.
You can try getting the base made in the Behr paint, but to be absolutely sure it might be a good idea to get the paint at Lowe's.

Quote:
I was shooting to get an N8.4-N8.7 with my mix.
I used 8 fl oz of pp100 tinted + 8 fl of of liquitex basics silver + 4oz of distilled water + 1.67 (50ml) of ul204 N6

I've attached some pics and referenced behr silver screen, I believe is N8.3 as a reference.
Behr 'Silver Screen' is a N8 neutral gray.

Quote:
Any Help or encouragement would be appreciated

Thank you
I think you're doing great, but you need to get the correct color base to get rid of that red push.
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post #46 of 161 Old 01-04-12, 01:35 PM
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Posts: 7
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Wow, thank you for the reply.
I had a feeling that it was not right and the red push was my bad
Initially, I thought the red will mix away with the silver, but after a while I knew it had to be wrong.

So an 8 oz sample is just too small to put the 5/384 magenta reliably and a quart would be the minimum you'd recommend? I think i can get the 5/384 in the behr mixed to the pp100 UPW, with their machine, I'll give it a shot as the wife is already back from the US today so Lowes is out for this week as an option.

I think going with worse case an 8 oz behr sample will go much better than my current bad base and a quart is likely perfect.


Any idea what N tint would be best to handle some ambient light?
The HD65 has about 1200 lumens on bright mode and 600 in best calibrated mode, so assuming 600 lumens and my screen size is aprox 107" or 35 sq ft, would bring a 17 FL. if I ramp to bright or 1000 lumens i'd have 28 FL.
Would you recommend a tint of N8 or 8.5 and is there any formula I can use to get there. I was just ballparking the Elektra tints from the original C&S thread, but they were based on the 48oz c&s mix, not the 40 oz c&s mix (assuming water added counts).

Thank you again!
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post #47 of 161 Old 01-04-12, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Don
 
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Location: Central PA
Posts: 3,772
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Quote:
bisch wrote: View Post
Wow, thank you for the reply.
I had a feeling that it was not right and the red push was my bad
Initially, I thought the red will mix away with the silver, but after a while I knew it had to be wrong.

So an 8 oz sample is just too small to put the 5/384 magenta reliably and a quart would be the minimum you'd recommend? I think i can get the 5/384 in the behr mixed to the pp100 UPW, with their machine, I'll give it a shot as the wife is already back from the US today so Lowes is out for this week as an option.

I think going with worse case an 8 oz behr sample will go much better than my current bad base and a quart is likely perfect.
If you want to use an 8 oz. sample to make C&S™ Ultra you could have your Home Depot store add 1/384 oz. of Magenta tint to a jar of the #1850 equivalent paint. My guess is that they would look at you funny, but it would be better than having no Magenta tint at all. That sample jar would equate to a quart with 4/384 oz. of tint in it.

Quote:
Any idea what N tint would be best to handle some ambient light?
The HD65 has about 1200 lumens on bright mode and 600 in best calibrated mode, so assuming 600 lumens and my screen size is aprox 107" or 35 sq ft, would bring a 17 FL. if I ramp to bright or 1000 lumens i'd have 28 FL.
Would you recommend a tint of N8 or 8.5 and is there any formula I can use to get there. I was just ballparking the Elektra tints from the original C&S thread, but they were based on the 48oz c&s mix, not the 40 oz c&s mix (assuming water added counts).

Thank you again!
For your HT I personally would go with a N8, but you might like a brighter image; if that's the case then go with the N8.5.

There is currently no real formula for determining the N value that a screen should be, but I guess one could be designed. The problem is that to really get that technical about it you should actually measure the amount of ambient light during viewing and most people don't want to go that far.

Basically, the brighter your PJ the darker gray can be used. If you have enough lumens to counteract the light absorption of the gray screen to get around 16 fL of image brightness you are good to go. Some folks (like Mech and I) find 12 fL to be plenty bright, but this is very subjective.

I haven't determined the exact proportions of N6 gray paint to add to C&S™ Ultra to get exact N8.5 and N8 levels, but the idea that adding a neutral color paint to a neutral color paint = a neutral color paint means that you could simply experiment mixing N6 and C&S™ Ultra until you get to a gray shade you like.

Since the Liquitex BASICS Silver paint that is used in making C&S™ Ultra isn't as sparkly as the discontinued silver paint used in the original C&S™ mixes it may be possible to simply use a darker base paint rather than adding the N6 to the mix. The original idea behind the N6 addition was to darken the mix AND to dilute it to prevent visible sparkles which tended to show up as the mix darkened. I don't think that will be a problem when using the BASICS Silver. What all this means is that I have more mixing and testing to do!
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post #48 of 161 Old 01-19-12, 06:37 PM
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Dan
 
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread before I found the one I was looking for. Just tried to repaint my screen with original C&S that had been sitting in the can for a year or two. Shook the dickens out of it, then stirred it for about 10 minutes with a drill... Looked kind of pink, but I was already committed since I had just patched and primed the gouges my kids made in my nice smooth screen. Went on... uh... kinda pink. Maybe it dries greyer? Nope. pink. I can see the grey of the C&S at the unfinished edge, and this is definitely pink.

I guess the lesson is 'stir/shake even more', or that the silver just settles out and can't be stirred back in (by me at least). Fine, then. I guess I get a pink screen until the liquitex silver comes in and I can make it the 80 miles to Lowes!

Actually, I think straight Kilz may be better than the pink...

I'm sure glad harpmaker likes doing the R&D on this stuff!

--Dan

Last edited by Harpmaker; 01-19-12 at 07:03 PM. Reason: small edit to meet forum rules.
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post #49 of 161 Old 01-19-12, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Don
 
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Location: Central PA
Posts: 3,772
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

I don't know why your original C&S™ turned pink in the can... are you sure there was CSMS in it? At any rate, this is why we are not using craft quality paints in our screen mixes anymore, they are too likely to change without notice.

What latex paint brands are available to you locally? I might be able to find another base you can use besides Valspar.
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post #50 of 161 Old 01-19-12, 07:57 PM
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Dan
 
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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

There's a Home Despot 30 miles away (where we usually shop); I think a Behr product was mentioned. Seems like luck with getting the mix right is ... uh.. spotty at that establishment, so I was considering just going to Lowes (got to go down there anyway some time soon).
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