Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions - Page 9 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #81 of 179 Old 09-25-07, 03:04 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 85
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

bill, his screen is the 84" one that you recommended the ND filter for since his PJ was showing up a little too bright.
GbrNole is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #82 of 179 Old 09-25-07, 03:56 PM
jefft1314
Inactive
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

I've got to take my car in to get looked at, and pay rent here pretty soon. I should be able to swing the ND filter, however, whatever the case.

Is there a particular one that you guys would reccommend, in terms of how much brightness it would reduce it by? Projector central says i'm rocking 25 lumens at the moment. I probably want to be around 15 lumens, is that right?
post #83 of 179 Old 09-25-07, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
wbassett's Avatar
Bill
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,234
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Yeah 15fL would be more than sufficient

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
wbassett is offline  
 
post #84 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 09:27 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 85
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

alright i figured i might as well do my part and add another neutral gray to the mix (well neutral according to easyrgb.com anyway) it's a laura ashley color mixed using a quart of valspar signature series ultra matte so it has a slight sheen and it is washable and scrubbable.

the color is 1513 winter wind with RGB values of 219 218 218. the ever so slightly elevated red number stands out in the finished mix to give the paint a very subtle lilac hue.

for a little background my whole house is painted with laura ashley colors but mostly in satin and eggshell finishes. i have always found this paint to be pretty easy to work with (not the easiest though) and it has always dried flat and uniform when applied with proper care and technique.

for reference i had painted my screen with an easy flex 06 shade with upw 1850 base and i repainted the right half of the screen with the laura ashley (valspar) paint. both paints have a very similar sheen and the only significant difference is that the EF06 has been on the wall for a while but the LA WW was applied last night.

50/50 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right



75/25 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right



25/75 color reference. EF06 on the left, LA WW on the right



note: all of the above photos were taken with flash from about 5 feet away. my camera also has a tendency to push red a little bit.

ambient light screen shots where the total ambient light is in excess of 500 watts from adjacent rooms.

ambient light results with projector in its best setting with both iris' stopped down (the ef06 does a good job here)



same amount of ambient light except this time both iris' are wide open (ef06 wins again but it's not as big of a victory when more PJ light is thrown onto the screen)



same image but with no ambient light



for good measure i'm adding a couple of screen shots that show the color differences. please note that the projector was basic calibrated for the EF06 screen and no adjustments have been made to compensate for the LA WW.









the result from my little experiment has really been that the EF series of paints do a pretty good job even though they aren't truly neutral. right now i'm a little torn since while watching the movie there were instances where i like them both.
the LA WW is just a hair darker than True Value Winter Mist and as you can see in the first images it's a lot lighter and much less green than EF06.

I think my next experiment will be to see how a quart of TV Winter Mountain with a coat of poly stacks up against EF06. i definitely don't want to go darker than EF06 but i do want to go a touch more neutral. if i could find something readily available that had RGB color values of ~210 210 210 (not likely but still...) i think i would be set until the next time
GbrNole is offline  
post #85 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
wbassett's Avatar
Bill
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,234
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Very good write up and comparison.

Yes the EF series do work well. A couple things I'm seeing from the screen shots also show the differences between two shades of gray. The EF is around the 205 shade and as you mentioned Winter Wind is 219 218 218. That will account for the improvement with lights on. Darker shades will always win in that scenario.

I know we can't truly judge 100% by screenies, which is why I like supporting data to go along with them- and you did say your camera seems to tend to push red some. I do see a reddish cast in the lights on shots. Incandescent lighting also adds red to the image, so perhaps between that, the slightly elevated red value of WW and any push the camera may be adding is the reason, but on my end I do see it.

With lights out though it seems to be fine, and possible even a slight edge with the color reproduction. To be fair to EF, these are pretty different shades. An EF04 probably would be closer performance across the board, but again this is a good demonstration of the difference between two different shades.

If you have them and want to do even more testing, if you combine equal amounts of Winter Mountain and Winter Mist you'll get your 210 neutral shade.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
wbassett is offline  
post #86 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 10:45 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 85
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

i don't have winter mountain or winter mist but you sure are making it difficult for me not to go out and buy some now!!!

has it ever been determined if a poly top coat causes any discernible color difference when applied to a true value paint? this is my one concern because my media room doubles as an office where the kids do their homework etc. and the screen is actually the wall directly behind the work counter (i'd say desk but it's an 8 foot long, 25" wide piece of granite )
GbrNole is offline  
post #87 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 11:25 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 360
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

I concur with Bill's comments. I would go further to suggest that if you were to compare an EF04 you should try a (3:1) ratio of LB:YO as well. That would make the two similar in color. An EF04.5 (0 4 1 LB + 0 1 1 YO / quart UPW) would have a less greenish look to it and be more like the other paint.

Another approach would be to take the Xrite neutral gray tint for Behr UPW and do the following:

Buy a gallon of the UPW #1850 and an empty quart can. Get the attendant to put the N7 neutral tint in the empty quart can. Keep the can upright at all times. You don't want the colorants all over the inside of the can. Also pickup a stirring attachment for your drill. Now go to the nearest veterinarian's office and ask for a 2oz. syringe with a catheter tip. That is a long plastic tip instead of a needle. They use these to force feed animals. It should be $2 or less and worth every penny for accurately mixing ratios of paint.
================
Quart? Custom Tint
Behr UPW #1050 / #1850 / #4850 (see Sheen Guide)
Lamp Black 0 15 1
Brown Oxide 0 3 1
Medium Yellow 0 1 1
================
When you get home, you can fill the empty quart can with untinted UPW and mix it really well with the drill attachment. Out of the quart can you have a neutral N7 according to Xrite. In the gallon can you have three quarts of untinted UPW. If Bill could provide a color graph with the UPW and N7 points on it then draw a line from one to the other that will show you all the shades of gray you can make. The more untinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the UPW end of the line. The more N7 tinted UPW you use the closer it will be to the N7 end of the line.

I doubt that the ratios work out as simple as 1 Part N7 + 2 Parts UPW == N9 and 2 Parts N7 + 1 Part UPW == N8 but who knows. I do know that untinted UPW has a slight blue push to it so the combinations that contain more UPW will be less neutral but UPW alone makes a pretty good white screen. I think Bill has indicated that the darker the gray the more important it is that it be neutral.

I wish I could do these experiments myself but "she who must be obeyed" must in fact be obeyed! At least I am able to tell you how to try every possible shade from UPW white to N7 for only the cost of a gallon of Behr paint and an empty quart can.

At one time I had planed on presenting a "Gray Experimenter's Kit" for those wanting to dial in the perfect shade of gray for their setup and desires. The above materials and instructions form the basis of that idea. There is enough paint there to make up at least a half dozen sample panels 2'x4'.
Tiddler is offline  
post #88 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 11:45 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 85
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

hmmm... interesting and something i'd definitely be up for since my nearest true value isn't terribly far away but it's by the beach so the traffic makes it a complete pain in the rear to get to - on the other hand it seems i have to pass by both a home depot and a lowes just so i can think about taking a dump! (3 of each within 12 miles of my house)
GbrNole is offline  
post #89 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
wbassett's Avatar
Bill
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,234
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Just a note, I started composing this before and Todd already made a reply too... I'm not trying to compete or contradict anything...

Quote:
GbrNole wrote: View Post
alright i figured i might as well do my part and add another neutral gray to the mix (well neutral according to easyrgb.com anyway) it's a laura ashley color mixed using a quart of valspar signature series ultra matte so it has a slight sheen and it is washable and scrubbable.
Quote:
GbrNole wrote: View Post
i don't have winter mountain or winter mist but you sure are making it difficult for me not to go out and buy some now!!!

has it ever been determined if a poly top coat causes any discernible color difference when applied to a true value paint? this is my one concern because my media room doubles as an office where the kids do their homework etc. and the screen is actually the wall directly behind the work counter (i'd say desk but it's an 8 foot long, 25" wide piece of granite )
Don't go out of your way to buy it, I wasn't sure if you already had some for testing. If so, it was something you could try.

Yes there is a color change with the poly, we know that from the Silver Screen tests and there were some spectro readings that showed it did indeed tame down the blue tone. Mech has a Winter Mountain test panel already done and I know he has some poly. When he gets his spectrophotometer back from cal I'm sure he'll be taking some readings with and without the poly. This is actually something that needs to be done. We need to identify and track if this is a consistent affect on anything or if it varies by shades. If it is consistent and we can determine exactly how it's changing and in what direction, we will be able to look at any paint reading and know where it will be after a poly coating is applied. Like I said, this is valuable information that needs to be gathered anyway.

One thing to note, since you're using Valspar, they have a Machrite system and can call up paint from any manufacturer and brand and get the color information and mix. I have some Winter Mountain made with Valspar sitting right here right now! I would like to get some readings on it to make sure it is the same since a different base is being used. The guy in the store said it 'should' be identical, but I like to confirm things like that. You will be able to get anything made with the Signature Series Ultra Matte. So if you wanted any of the OTS neutrals you could go that route too. (I'm actually making a note to get some myself- I am always interested in matte if its available)

We'll have more readings on a lot of things soon and get everything cataloged. I have the Munsell neutral fandeck coming as well and once that's color matched with all the major paint manufacturers, between those and the OTS neutrals we'll have all the grays anyone would ever need for simple applications or even as the base for a more complex layered approach.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
wbassett is offline  
post #90 of 179 Old 10-03-07, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
wbassett's Avatar
Bill
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,234
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Quote:
GbrNole wrote: View Post
hmmm... interesting and something i'd definitely be up for since my nearest true value isn't terribly far away but it's by the beach so the traffic makes it a complete pain in the rear to get to - on the other hand it seems i have to pass by both a home depot and a lowes just so i can think about taking a dump! (3 of each within 12 miles of my house)
Like I mentioned, Lowes can make anything with their system, they can even call up Behr Silver Screen and make that

This weekend I'll be getting some True Value Winter Mountain and painting a test panel that's half Valspar WM and half TV WM to test if I can see any visible difference. Mech will be doing readings of everything very soon.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
wbassett is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
grays , neutral , shelf , simple , solutions

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome