New Shackster needs a Painted Screen! - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 144 Old 07-30-07, 08:59 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

How about an update 12th Man?
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post #32 of 144 Old 07-31-07, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Off to a slower start than I hoped for. My toddler and infant just don't understand....

I did manage to roll 2 coats of Kilz2 over the weekend. After the 2nd coat dried I sanded the wall lightly but didn't notice much of a difference. So then I sprayed a 3rd coat of Kilz2 thinned with distilled water with the ultimate goal being the smoothest surface possible. I had some HD gift cards to burn so I bought the Wagner Control Spray with this project and several others in mind. It is now clear that I need to refine & practice my spraying technique but I still don't know if a properly sprayed 3rd coat would have answered the questions I have about the texture on my wall.

And that is where it stands.

I am struggling to determine how much of an issue, if any, my wall texture is and just how smooth the screen surface is supposed to be. I would not consider our wall texture heavy by any stretch, just a normal, light to medium texture. Clearly the screen area I have worked on is no longer as textured as the adjoining wall but you still feel the texture when running your hand across it.

So I am wondering if perhaps my rolled coats of primer were not thick enough. I read in one of the threads (after the fact) that the roller should be loaded and applied over a vertical strip of about 18-24" in length. Is that correct? I would load the roller and do a full vertical strip before going back for more. Would another thickly applied coat of primer help?

Oh, and I have only had a few minutes to fire up the projector on the primed wall and.....not bad. Will try to do some calibration and extended viewing this week but want to put this texture/smoothness question to bed before moving on.
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post #33 of 144 Old 07-31-07, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Hello?
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post #34 of 144 Old 07-31-07, 08:27 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

How bad does it look? Can you see any texture or uneven areas from the seated viewing distance?
This is what you would see if you were right up on the surface and not the seated distance.

If you can see the texture when you are seated, when you project an image you could get a sparklie effect from the highs and lows, especially during fact action and panning scenes. You want it smooth, but a little texture is fine.

To really get a feel for what is okay, go to Home Depot or Lowes and in the Kitchen Counter top department there will be a Wilsonart Laminate display. I know you are not going that route, but this will show you what is acceptable. Find the laminate samples and take one. They should have Designer White and Fashion Grey there, but it doesn't matter as long as it is the general purpose solid color series in the 60 matte finish. Compare that to your wall and if they look the same or close you should be fine. If the wall is noticeably rougher, you may need to sand it to smooth it out.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #35 of 144 Old 07-31-07, 09:02 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

It also depends on the finish you will be using. In the Behr Sheen tests I found that the flat 1050, flat-enamel 1850, exterior Flat ULTRA 4850 could have quite a bit of texture and still not have it show in the image when panning.

Are you wanting a higher gain screen or could you work with a matte or matte with clear matte top coat screen?

Keep in mind too that your fingers can detect very small roughness as small as a 1/1000 th of an inch.

How does your texture compare to these photos:



Note tese photos are have light from above to highlight the texture

Remember I painted over this with UPW Flat 1050 and you can't see the rough surface.


After a clear top matte top coat the roughness is visible. That is one of the big advantages of a flat screen surface. The panel on the right has had a clear matte top coat applied.

Last edited by Tiddler; 07-31-07 at 09:18 PM.
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post #36 of 144 Old 08-01-07, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Quote:
wbassett wrote: View Post
How bad does it look? Can you see any texture or uneven areas from the seated viewing distance?
With the projector off and lights on the texture is certainly noticeable if you look for it. With the projector on and/or the lights off it is not noticeable. I never noticed the texture before the primer & sanding shooting to the wall so maybe it's a non-issue for me.
Quote:
This is what you would see if you were right up on the surface and not the seated distance.
I'd say my primed/sanded wall most resembles the 'satisfactory' image but the more closely resemble some of the pics Tiddler provided below. I planned to provide a picture example but my wife saw a picture of a blank white wall on the camera and deleted it thinking our toddler got ahold of the camera again.
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post #37 of 144 Old 08-12-07, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Well, so far not so great. Honestly I am at a bit of a low point today five coats of the SF application. With a few coats still to go I decided to fire up the Mits1000 and see how it looks so far. The drywall texture was amplified and completely noticeable for the first time. I never saw any texture when shooting to a beige wall or after a few rolled coats of Kilz2. Now it's all you notice.

Texture was a concern I had expressed here and in my conversations with MM. I remain convinced that our walls have light-to-moderte texture but after what I just saw maybe I have to accept that I may have underestimated it.

I decided to try SF for its purported performance in moderate ambient light conditions and high gain. I never hid the fact that I am not a DIY handyman and any shortcomings in whatever result I get may ultimately be most attributable to my inexperience. So now I am waiting to discuss with MM and wishing I would have started out with a simpler application or just gone with one of the laminates. Not sure which direction I will go next....

Last edited by 12th Man; 08-12-07 at 01:24 PM.
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post #38 of 144 Old 08-12-07, 01:25 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

12th man this is why I was so adamant about doing a baseline. Most people don't do this and it really is impossible to judge improvements when no reference baseline has been established.

I would say though to go ahead and finish up with any additional coatings that are recommended and then let it cure for a few days.

Here are some tips about gain from the Data and Testing Definitions thread:
Quote:
12 foot-Lamberts is considered the minimum screen brightness for a completely light controlled room. Many people may disagree with that, and some have far less than that and find it acceptable, but that is the recommended min. The SMPTE and THX standard is 16 foot-Lamberts, and movie theaters usually produce between 12 to 22 fL of light at the screen. Television produces 35 fL or more depending if it's standard definition TV or HDTV.

So if you are less than 12 fL at the screen, that means you either should think about
  1. A brighter projector
  2. A smaller screen
  3. Higher gain

For those that already purchased a projector, option 1 on the list is out of the question. That leaves a smaller screen or higher gain.

Gain is tricky. Some people guess at gain based on comparisons to other materials. This could be dead on accurate, but it certainly isn't reliable. Even commercial companies are sometimes guilty of using testing methods that do not adhere to industry standards and as such they may list 'custom' gains that are unrealistic. One company lists a gain of 1.8 for their CRT White, however when it was formally tested and reviewed, it was not as bright as a StudioTek 130 which has a gain of 1.3. The estimated gain was placed at 1.0 when the company stated it was 1.8.

Gain can bring the fL up to the level needed for a good sharp and vivid image, but many times people get caught up in the numbers. Higher gain is not always better. When gain goes up, the viewing cone goes down. Viewing Cone is the angle at which the screen brightness drops off dramatically from the on axis image. This cannot be avoided, as gain goes up viewing cone goes down, period.

Gain is a measurement of the reflectivity of any screen or projection surface. The gain number represents a ratio of the light that is reflected from the screen as compared to the light reflected from a magnesium oxide reference source. So a screen rated with a gain of 1.0 will reflect the same amount of light as a magnesium oxide reference, and a screen rated at a gain of 1.5 will reflect 50% more than the reference source. This does not mean light is being produced. There can never be more light than what the projector itself creates, and from the instant it leaves the bulb, the energy starts to decrease.

How this works is a 1.0 gain screen is referred to as a unity gain screen. This type of screen has an even amount of light dispersion across the entire surface of the screen and will look just as bright off axis as on axis. Once the gain increases, the light has to come from somewhere and in essence it comes from the off angle reflected light. Since more light is being focused and returned to the on axis viewing position, the off axis angles become dimmer. For the most part this is not a big issue since people normally do not sit at that far of an angle to a screen, but in certain venues such as a church, auditorium, or a bar, there usually are extreme viewing angles present. The angle at which the gain reading drops to 50% of the peak value is known as the Half Gain Viewing Angle. A person viewing the screen from this angle will see an image half as bright as the person seated at the center position.

A high gain screen does not typically reflect red, green, and blue equally. This can produce color shifts in the image that are very noticeable when the screen is viewed from different angles.


Ideally for Home Theater use, the gain is normally between 1.0 to 1.8. That isn't a set rule though and some may prefer a brighter image, but the brighter the image is, the more eye fatigue that occurs. There will be a point that even a two hour movie can induce a headache from strained eyes caused by a screen being too bright.
Also something to note about gain is when it goes up, aside from a reduced viewing cone, typically black level performance goes down and white level performance goes up.

Too much surface gain and you introduce specular gain, which almost always results in hot spotting or other image related issues. This really is only a problem with darker shades. An N9 or N8.5 are pretty safe and N9 isn't as susceptible to specular gain like a darker shade is.

So the base does play a factor in all of this, and as a foundation, the better balanced the base is the better the overall screen will be. Neutrals are also more efficient as reflecting light evenly and without shifting the colors. You could review two screens similar in shade, one being neutral and the other an unbalanced gray and without any top coating I guarantee the neutral screen will look brighter.

Good luck with the rest of your project and I hope in the end all turns out well for you. All that matters really is if you are happy in the end.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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post #39 of 144 Old 08-12-07, 02:00 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

12th man if you think there is too much texture and a paintable substrate isn't an option, check into liner paper. You will get smooth surface with that for sure.

It means starting over, but if you have to do that then you have to. For now though like I said, finish up with any additional recommended coatings and let it cure, then check it out.

I am getting ready for my screen reviews (when my daughter goes back to PA) and one of the things I will be testing and reviewing is a sprayer. If you can use a spray can and get a smooth even finish with no runs, this may be ideal for some people.

Rolling though still is a very viable application method and really isn't that hard to do without roller marks or excessive texture. The quality of paint though has a lot to do with that too. Cheap paints are loaded with lots of clay and don't roll or cover as well.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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post #40 of 144 Old 08-12-07, 02:15 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Less than $10

I color matched a certain $2000 screen and a quart was $9 and some change.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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