New Shackster needs a Painted Screen! - Page 8 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #71 of 144 Old 08-14-07, 05:05 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

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12th Man wrote: View Post
It's a spackling compound. I have only used it once before and would consider it thicker than "soupy" if memory serves. I had found one of your posts on AVS from January in which you said you used "the kind that goes on red and dries white". Well, that struck a chord of familiarity with me because this DryDex goes on red (well, pink) and dries white. It was only $3 for the 1/2 pint I bought so guess I'll give it a try before heading back to the store.

My next door neighbor owns a sign company and my first order of business is checking with him on any large PVC sheets he can order at a reasonable price in which case I can take all this other stuff back to the store and move on!
Yeah I did initially use that, but later went over it with premixed mud since my wall was a mess to begin with. Try it since you have it. It's just a little thicker and harder to get down as thin and smooth as mud but it will work!

If you can get a substrate that's one piece and in the right size, then definitely go that route. Just make sure to prime it first. Any plastic or nonporous surface needs to be primed so the paint will stick.

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post #72 of 144 Old 08-14-07, 07:05 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

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mechman wrote: View Post
Jim,

That's not much texture in my book! Laminates are pretty close to that.
Agree completely, see my post here. Now, as much as I hate to say this, I believe that the originators of the mix have consistently said that for this particular mix, the surface you're spraying should be glass-smooth. That requirement seems too stringent to be practical for an existing wall, especially since my wall looks somewhat similar to 12th Man's...but it's what they ask for. That's why, I believe, most of the time they use a new substrate (or in one case where they used drywall, rolled the whole wall in thinned drywall compound and then sanded it).

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As for screenies of it I've only seen the ones from the originator and those beg for better quality shots. Ever notice how they're small and only compared to their own stuff - not a good white baseline. Look at some of the excellent shots over there in the Laminate showcase. Most all of those blow away anything they've done. That'll change though cause I'm getting closer to getting to it! :raped:

Yours looks nice because of the lack of sheen.
Agree with you completely that they should have a white reference in their shots...I'd guess that I've asked for a white reference in their pics at least 10 times (across many different threads, and to several people) and gotten nothing...not even an acknowledgment of the request. That being said, there are members of that forum (that I am assuming are in no way connected to the originators of the mix) that have claimed that they have successfully applied the formula and are ecstatic with their image. Is it because they have nothing to compare to? Could be...or it could look great...but be very difficult to apply???

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mechman wrote: View Post
As for trying it again, :holycow:! We try to baseline things here more upon science than guesswork. No one knows the RGB, Yxy, or gain data of that mix. It's just a bunch of hearsay that everyone is supposed to believe because that dog is the loudest on the block. Well, that ship won't sail here until it's tried, tested, and baselined. Had you been around a few monthes back you'd know why the real DIY folks are here and the snake oil salesman is there. Squeaky wheel gets the grease over there if you know what I mean.
Calm down there mech...

Read my post again...I suggested that if in his heart he still believes that SF is the right mix for him, he could try again on a practice board. Then, if it looks great he can apply to his real screen. If it doesn't, he can pursue other options (I assume those options that have a much larger body of research behind them...i.e. an option from you, Todd, and/or Bill). The reason that I even suggested that he try again if he really thinks SF has the qualities that he needs is that, if he's anything like me, he'll spend the next 5 years wondering if, in fact, it was the "normal texture" of painted drywall that caused the issue...or if it's just that the mix is lousy. (Of course, my personality is such that I haven't slept well in a month since starting this HT project...perhaps he can just flush the failed effort from his mind and sleep like a baby.)

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mechman wrote: View Post
Alright, [BANANA]Rant over[/BANANA]. I hate to vent, but I also have seen what's happened here when 12th was given proven alternatives that would have worked as opposed to someone selling him on "when compared to XXX the gain is around 2.0 and the RGB hasn't been measured but it's near neutral". That is nothing more than hearsay and conjecture.

I'm sure Bill could add more but you cannot create a neutral color with paints that have not been tested and more than likely do not have similar luminance values.

12th,

You can try it again if you wish. But I wouldn't! Especially after seeing the pictures. I can't wait to see if it hot spots. Can you take a flash picture of the screen?

mech
Were I 12th Man, my suspicion at this point would be that the mix is lousy. I'll say again that, for my own mental health (had I just done all of the work that he has, and thought the problem may be the texture), I would try the mix on a practice board. I'd end all doubt in my mind, and could provide data on the mix (when applied to a smooth substrate) to the DIY community. At this point, the argument from the originators will be that the problem with this was the textured wall. I would want to dig in far enough to find out if that is true. Not because I think the result will be different on a smooth substrate, but because I would simply have to know the truth.

That being said, if I was the type of person that could just "let it go"...then I would absolutely never touch SF or anything like it again. I'd do exactly what mech suggests and move on to something that has tons of science and measurable data behind it.

To be clear, I am in no way advocating that someone starting anew even consider these super-heavy metallic mixes. Every person going through the decision-making process has to decide who you believe, plain and simple. The fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, you'll get polar opposites of advice from different forums. In my case, I went with the scientific data...I am much more comfortable applying a mix that I am confident has been researched to death (a light neutral grey) than a mix that's "data" is primarily emotional testimony. I'm only suggesting that 12th Man may want to touch it (again) because he has so much invested (especially time) at this point...and may have a hunger for the truth.
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post #73 of 144 Old 08-14-07, 09:35 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

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mechman wrote: View Post
Don't Worry Jim! I've cracked the scotch and the worries of the other forum have left me! Thanks for bearing with me! I'd love for him to try it on something smooth but I'd hate for him to have to fork out the money again. But if you're like us captives of DIY... money has never been an object. I wonder what Todd has spent on Behr paint in the last year? Or I on different pieces of laminates? We're some crazy people!

12th, what are you thinking at this point? Any pictures yet?

mech

Yep, y'all all Have more money than me

BTW, I'm working on uploading pics now...per your request.
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post #74 of 144 Old 08-14-07, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

You guys are killing me!

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Cynical2 wrote:
if he's anything like me, he'll spend the next 5 years wondering if, in fact, it was the "normal texture" of painted drywall that caused the issue...or if it's just that the mix is lousy. (Of course, my personality is such that I haven't slept well in a month since starting this HT project
Sounds like I am A LOT like you. Good thing i have a GREAT wife because she thinks I've lost my mind. Despite the disappointment of failing on my first try, I still get some kind of stange enjoyment out of the journey and wonder if I am going to be content to just sit down and watch the projector once my screen is complete. Probably not. Having gone the DIY route from the start I'll probably be tweaking and experimenting in perpetual fashion going forward. Don't tell Mrs. 12th Man that part.

Quote:
Cynical2 wrote:
if you believe in your heart of hearts that SF if the best mix for your viewing situation, I wouldn't have any hesitation with trying again over liner paper.
While I haven't ruled that out completely it's unlikely for several reasons. I would NOT be happy about forking out the cash for all the ingredients again and ending up with the same or otherwise unsatisfactory results (for what ever cause) and being back at square one, again. I realize there are no guarantees with any DIY application and that poor results are universally possible but I'd be left thinking that I should have taken my medicine and learned my lesson the first time.

On the other hand, despite all the information I have tried to consume during this project, it is still stuck in my mind that I need a high gain screen which is why SF was so appealing to me in the first place based on what its originators claim in that regard. The idea of testing on a smaller, cheaper substrate is worth considering but like I said, not likely given the expense, time, complexity all coupled with the real possibility that I will not have success again.

Quote:
mech wrote:
12th, what are you thinking at this point? Any pictures yet?
I'm thinking that there are a bunch of options out there and I just need to pick one and go! Seriously, I am going to address my wall one way or the other, even though I remain convinced that the texture is not excessive and should have worked with the SF application. In fact, I recall seeing a screen shot or video capture on the other site posted by one of the SF guys showing a very comparable amount of drywall texture to my own. That's partially what made me believe that I did not need to do anything "above and beyond" in terms of wall prep.

Honestly, I'm not sure that I will invest any more time on the current disaster since it is not fixable at this point and the projected image looks so bad that I'm not sure what use pictures would be. I might take a few but I am way more concerned with fixing things and getting a screen done before football season gets here!
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post #75 of 144 Old 08-14-07, 11:44 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

Well, you sound to me like you're able to put it behind you...so, in that case...listen to these guys. They actually know what they're talking about, and they'll take care of you. You can read all of the questions that I've bombarded them with (especially Todd - aka tiddler - with the screen painting) on my journey to creating a screen and environment that meets my needs, and they've all been more than helpful.

I currently have an EasyFlex-04 paint on the wall, and am very happy with what I see at this point. I just put some pics in my thread. If you need the gain, Todd has done work with pearl clearcoats (you should read that thread if you haven't already) that really seem to help with gain. Before I give you any bad info, I'm going to let mech, Bill, and Todd figure out what you should do to get a screen that will suit your needs. Though, I think they've done some of that already...I can't recall if any of their earlier suggestions had the gain you were after (and I'm too tired to read it all right now...bedtime for me). If they didn't, I'm sure they can offer add'l options.

Good luck, again!
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post #76 of 144 Old 08-15-07, 08:19 AM
 
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

I would like to provide gain specs for you that can compete with SF claims. The problem is I can only provide actual measure gain data. I am not terribly skilled at providing specs that I pluck out of the air.

So here are a few gain measurement curves that prof55 provided for the EasyFlex tints and also some very early pearl clear coat trials.

We will start with something simple:

Here is a gain curve for Behr "Silver Screen" tinted UPW #1050. At zero degrees it has a gain of 0.72 and a nicde gentle roll off with viewing angle. The simple Behr matte polyurethane top coat produced an on axis gain boost of 0.01bringing the gain up to 0.82. It also produces a more gentle roll off compared to the Stewart Grayhawk.

Now lets look at what happens with a simple white base solution:

The Behr UPW #1050 has a gain of 1.12 on axis. Again the matte polyurethane introduces a gain boost that increases the gain to 1.3 while maintaining a fairly gentle roll off with angle.

Here are a family of gain curves for the EasyFlex tints and matte poly top coats:

The matte poly increases the gain by about 0.15 on average.

Here is a screen shot comparison of RS-MaxxMudd and an EasyFlex-06\B780 sample panel. This was provided by ktailon. He reported that the RS-MaxxMudd was a little lighter shade of gray. That will partially explain the slight difference in brightness. Keep in mind that the RS-MaxxMudd is a metallic mix very similar to the SF mix. It has a larger quantity of UPW than SF and is therefore does not have the same amount of surface sheen.

NOTE: It just occurred to me that a top coat of matte polyurethane may have resolved your surface texture woes. Surface texture is most visible due to too much sheen. Your photos suggest to me that your SF mix has too much surface sheen. Sorry I did not think of this earlier.

Now that I have demonstrated that a simple application of UPW 1050 with matte poly top coat can compete with the metallic mixes, let's see what I can do with a metallic mix. We should start with the truth though. These so called metallic mixes are actually gray paints with some translucent properties and a high concentration of mica flakes. The flakes in the Delta Silver Metallic are NOT silver metallic flakes. They are more like the pearl mica flakes in the Folkart and Decoart White Pearl paints. The only actuall silver metallic (like) flakes I have found are in the craft paints are in the Winsor & Newton Iridescent medium. So what we really want is to introduce these mica flakes in a random orientation in order to increase reflective efficiency as well as gently redirect the light more towards the seating area. I chose not to obscure most of the flakes in a gray paint.

I decided to go the Pearl Clear Coat route for several reasons. There was less material required and it lends itself well to a incremental approach to implementing a DIY screen solution.

So let's get to it. What difference does the Pearl Clear Coat make:

The 2xPearl is two 2oz. bottles of Folkart Metallic White Pearl mixed in one quart of Behr Matte polyurethane #780. The 1xPearl is one bottle. So here we see the addition of pearl can introduce an approximate gain boost of another 0.1 and still results in a gentle roll of with viewing angle.

Since then I have found that Folkart also has a Pearlizing Medium. This is a clear medium with loads of pearl flakes in it. It does not have the white pigment so introduces no color shifting. I have no measurements but I do know from my trials that one 2oz. bottle of Folkart Pearlizing Medium added to one quart of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780 increases gain more than the 2xPearl using the Folkart Metallic White Pearl.

Here is a comparison of a matte white, white + poly, and a white with pearl clear coat.


That's all I can offer in the way of higher gain. Sorry, no unsubstantiated claims of gains of 2+ with no viewing cone. Just the measured and demonstrated gain boosting I was able to achieve through the use of matte clear coats and adding some pearl.

I know my sales pitch is pretty boring and my language is not very flowery, so it seems that there must be something better out there, Eh. Try sending Benven a pm. His CGII was measured to have a gain of 1.8 I think. I know he has been doing more work on his pearl clear coat solution and may be able to suggest an even better solution.

P.S You have a nice bright projector. I'm not sure why the need for such high gain. Your pj is twice as bright as my HD72 and I have an EasyFlex-06 with a simple matte poly top coat and 120"
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post #77 of 144 Old 08-15-07, 10:17 AM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

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While I haven't ruled that out completely it's unlikely for several reasons. I would NOT be happy about forking out the cash for all the ingredients again and ending up with the same or otherwise unsatisfactory results (for what ever cause) and being back at square one, again. I realize there are no guarantees with any DIY application and that poor results are universally possible but I'd be left thinking that I should have taken my medicine and learned my lesson the first time.
One thing to keep in mind is that you very well could run into the exact same thing with commercial screens except it would cost you a lot more money to find out you either don't like a particular screen or it doesn't work for your situation. DIY is two fold. It allows a person to find out what works best for them without spending a fortune on screens. Some places may allow you to return your screen within a certain period of time, but I would image there are many that won't or at a minimum charge a restocking fee. Depending on the price of the screen restocking fees could add up very fast.

The second thing is it is a learning experience as well. If you make your own screen usually by the time you are done you understand a lot more about screens than when you started. This education then allows you to really evaluate things. Some people may start out thinking DIY is a quick fix to an interim problem- 'I have no screen and blew my budget on the projector... now what?' It gets them up and running and I am sure many think 'Until I can afford a real screen'. They soon learn though that these are real screens and many of the DIY options, including some of the extremely simple methods are just as good as mid to high end screens. After seeing the performance and experiencing the satisfaction of building something that works well, most people end up deciding to stay with their DIY screen.

As important as the screen is to a home theater setup, majority of the cost for commercial screens really isn't the screen itself. Research and Development costs a lot of money, but I seriously doubt it costs the manufacturers thousands of dollars to make even the high end screens. With commercial screens you're paying for several things. One is the R&D as mentioned. Another is Quality Assurance and maintaining tight specifications.

One area I think a lot of people over look is the hardware. A fixed frame screen is always less expensive than the same screen in a remote controlled retractable enclosure, but there is still hardware involved even with the fixed frame. The frame itself takes engineering and manufacturing. As nice as our DIY border frames look, they are hardly commercial grade, especially from the back side. Plus they are generally much sturdier and weigh less than some of the behemouth DIY creations out there.

For the fun of it I checked into how much it would cost to get a professionally made frame done for a 52x92 screen. Now I know there will always be other sources that vary in prices, but the estimates I was given ranged anywhere from $290 all the way up to $450.

I digressed a bit, but what I am saying is even though the first attempt didn't suit your needs, it didn't cost an arm and a leg as compared to buying a screen and finding out you don't like it. So don't give up (not that you sound like you are) you'll get a screen that performs exceptionally well I'm sure!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #78 of 144 Old 08-15-07, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

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wbassett wrote: View Post
I digressed a bit, but what I am saying is even though the first attempt didn't suit your needs, it didn't cost an arm and a leg as compared to buying a screen and finding out you don't like it. So don't give up (not that you sound like you are) you'll get a screen that performs exceptionally well I'm sure!
Since you brought up frames, I have a question that I would have been asked eventually when the screen is done. Is your DIY frame easily removed? Knowing that I will probably be one of those who want to try new applications as they are developed and tested, I was wondering if you just tape up your frame or do you take it down for easier painting?

How is it mounted? I am sure this is outlined in another thread but like I said, I really haven't started the detailed planning of the frame yet other than buying 4 yards of the SyFabrics triple black velvet to wrap it with. I was thinking 1x3 poplar wood for material. Any other alternatives I should consider?

And there is no give up in this dude. I am more determined than ever to create a screen to be proud of.
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post #79 of 144 Old 08-15-07, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

tiddler, that is some great info! I really appreciate everyone's effort to help us newbies pull it all together!

I have to say, from the Terminator comparison shots you provided my first reaction is that the UPW + 1x pearl is my clear favorite. This probably reinforces my earlier statement that I would rather come down on the side of whiter whites than darker darks if given a choice. I know, that goes against my original stated desire to have an ambient light friendly screen (which I still want) but my room is going to require some compromise and I am leaning strongly to a white or light gray screen but not before I just evaluate my preferences on a few coats of Kilz2 (which I should have done more before trying the SF application)>

Just to confirm, the sample on the right is one bottle of Folkart Metallic White Pearl mixed in one quart of Behr Matte polyurethane #780 and rolled on in two coats, correct? Any plans to add to the comparison a sample of the 1x Folkart Pearlizing Medium + poly mix?
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post #80 of 144 Old 08-15-07, 12:14 PM
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Re: New Shackster needs a Painted Screen!

My border frame is a temp one for my test screen, but seems like I've had that test screen up for ages now!

Anyway, it's made from 1x3 poplar. Where I deviated was I used Black Suede instead of the ever popular Black Velvet. Why? I wanted to see if it would work. I got it at Walmart for around $2.50 a yard, so three yards was outrageously inexpensive.

I measured and miter cut the border and then I used glue instead of stapling it. I brushed the glue on and pressed the suede on the wood, let it dry and trimmed it.

I put two white picture hooks on thewall at the top, and two 'O' rings on the top of the frame and just hung it over the screen. On the bottom I used some Velcro on the corners and one piece in the middle to hold the bottom border against the wall. I can remove the border anytime very easily. The entire screen cost me $42 for the Gray Screen, $7.50 for the black suede, approximately $20 for the wood and hardware, and liner paper- $8.99. So total cost including the border was around $78. It would have been cheaper if Sherwin Williams sold their matte base by the quart instead of a gallon... I still have enough left over to paint at least four screens. (Anyone on the Albany area listening?? ) If I made the same screen using Winter Mountain (Same Munsell shade) the whole screen would have only cost me $45 bucks. Under half the cost of Projector Central's $100 DIY screen and ten times the perfomance at least. Project time from start to finish- a week and a half working on it during my spare time. If you worked it straight through, I'd say it's a nice and easy weekend project, Start Friday night, be watching movies Sunday evening.

I did find some plastic composite type 'boards' at a local home renovation store that comes in 3"x20' 1" thick for around around $10 each. Home Depot has them too but they were almost twice the price. These won't give you any support, but if you're just looking for a border they are perfectly straight and will remain perfectly straight. I'm getting some for my next project to check them out.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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