Elektra, taking it darker - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #1 of 12 Old 03-06-13, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Elektra, taking it darker

So I'm considering going with a darker DIY screen to some retail alternatives.

Im currently using an elektra screen, and the mix should be about n7.5 according to the elektra thread.

I have a TON left over from my last mix, I sprayed it so very efficient on usage.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to mix in a neutral n5/n4 and darken it up further? Maybe get some knon test cards and estimate it somewhere into the realm of a total n5/n6 paint.

Thoughts on this? Any adverse effects such as to much sparkling ect? I do already feel like the sparkle amount is a tad high on very bright solid color scenes.

Only other option I can think of is the WIP 6.4 BW
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post #2 of 12 Old 03-06-13, 07:20 PM
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Quote:
Cazten wrote: View Post
So I'm considering going with a darker DIY screen to some retail alternatives.

Im currently using an elektra screen, and the mix should be about n7.5 according to the elektra thread.

I have a TON left over from my last mix, I sprayed it so very efficient on usage.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to mix in a neutral n5/n4 and darken it up further? Maybe get some knon test cards and estimate it somewhere into the realm of a total n5/n6 paint.

Thoughts on this? Any adverse effects such as to much sparkling ect? I do already feel like the sparkle amount is a tad high on very bright solid color scenes.

Only other option I can think of is the WIP 6.4 BW
The darker a reflective mix goes the more the reflective element will tend to stand out from the darkness of the screen (an optical effect called Simultaneous Contrast). If you are seeing some sparkles in your Elektra™ screen now darkening the mix will probably make them worse.

The darker paints get the harder it is to make them color neutral (it took me 11 tries before I got an N6 Valspar tint within our neutrality standards ). You could try getting some black paint and mixing it with some of your remaining Elektra™ and see what you get. I would be happy to measure a sample of anything you come up with for color neutrality, just PM me for my address.

BTW, I have formulae for a very neutral N4 and a fairly-neutral N3 using Valspar samples if you're interested.
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post #3 of 12 Old 03-06-13, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Hmm. Maybe I should wait for development on the BW 6.4.. I'm just running short on time to complete it now.

Im going to be blasting this screen with over 2x the lumens considering throw distance and screen size changes from the previous elektra screen. The sparklies might really take over if you think making it darker will make it more pronounced.

I alway hear that BW tends to be rather shimmer free?

If you could Id still love those formulas. It may be worth experimentation.
Are there any OTS n5 or n6 paints from lows or home depot? Something not custom mixed but that i can get a "example card" of to compare against my screen and estimate the munsel value?
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post #4 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 04:38 PM
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Quote:
Cazten wrote: View Post
Hmm. Maybe I should wait for development on the BW 6.4.. I'm just running short on time to complete it now.

Im going to be blasting this screen with over 2x the lumens considering throw distance and screen size changes from the previous elektra screen. The sparklies might really take over if you think making it darker will make it more pronounced.

I alway hear that BW tends to be rather shimmer free?
The fact is that with PJ's getting brighter every year we are reaching a point where reflectively enhanced mixes are becoming niche items and people can use simple OTS gray paints to make excellent screens.

There are ALWAYS unwanted visual effects waiting in the wings for those using reflectively enhanced mixes, This applies to ALL reflectively enhanced mixes, including ours.

If too much reflective agent is in a mix it will hot spot or produce a "filmy" or "shimmering" effect in bright areas (large patches of blue sky or snow and ice). Our mixes don't have these problems because we use enough low-gloss opaque paint in our mixes to counter the refractive effect that causes them.

The larger the reflective particles are the greater chance there is of seeing a "graininess" in the projected image.

All these effects are magnified as more of image brightness hits the screen, and the darker shade of gray the screen really is the more chance these effects will become visible. The angle of the projected beam also has an effect on this.

A few have sworn they saw a graininess in their BW™ screens, but we developers here have been unable to reproduce those results with our own projectors. Since the reflective agent in BW™ is real aluminum (which is VERY reflective, but not refractive) seeing a graininess in the image is theoretically possible. IIRC when Mech tried increasing the amount of aluminum in BW™ that was the effect that prevented recommending that mix.

Quote:
If you could Id still love those formulas. It may be worth experimentation.
No problem, here they are. Keep in mind that Valspar samples are always in satin finish so adding them to a mix will increase the total gloss of the mix. In the case of adding them to an Elektra™ mix I doubt the added gloss would become a problem. but I haven't tried it.

N4 using Valspar 8 oz. sample BASE 4
Tint Amount
101 - 16
107 - 1.75
109 - 1.25
113 - 17

N3 using Valspar 8 oz. sample BASE 4
Tint Amount
101 - 23.75
107 - 2.5
109 - 1.5
113 - 8.25

Quote:
Are there any OTS n5 or n6 paints from lows or home depot? Something not custom mixed but that i can get a "example card" of to compare against my screen and estimate the munsel value?
The term OTS applies to a paint that is mixed for you at the store and the only thing you do is tell them the finish and color you want (or hand them a print-out containing that info or even the tint formula itself). The only "sample card" I know of that contains all neutral grays is from Glidden and they are older colors so the color deck at Home Depot no longer has them in it (they are still in HD's tinting computer). See this link for a list of the colors. The important into isn't the color name (Deep Onyx), but rather the color code (00NN 07/000). The leading 00NN means the color is a neutral gray. Your best bet of getting a sample card with these colors on it is from a Glidden Professional store. Here is a locator for these stores. I think I found 3 stores within 25 miles of you.

As for pre-mixed neutral gray paints, the least expensive one I know about is Liquitex BASICS 'Neutral Gray Value 5' (this is a satin paint) which is an N5. Other than that Golden paints has a neutral gray series in their Heavy Body line that run from N2 to N8, but at ~$9 for a 2 oz. tube they are prohibitively expensive to use as screen paints.
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post #5 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Thanks for the forumlas Harp,

Go figure i was racing out of the house to try some samples. Go to my parents where i had probably 2 screens worth of elektra left over in a paint can, and they through it out on accident.

Day of experimentation = over
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post #6 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

So I checked the ots thread and found "Icon grey" n6.25

I went and had some mixed up and tossed it against my current screen with some paper sheets. Just to try and find a point of Refernce in contrast difference against my elektra screen.

It's making me think so far that I'll repaint with BW 6.4

In very low light ambient light so far blacks are definitely black. Far improved. Image pop isn't quite so far down as I might expect either. I've been running throw some movies and pausing around in areas. So far I notice large improvement in

Grass, rocks, plants, water. Greater depth separation with better blacks
Human hair, especially black/brown. Again it's e color separation depth
Night city and space scenes

I'd def prefer a slight bit more "pop" so I'll go BW reflective if I repaint. And while the image is overall slightly dimmer I know a lot of that will erase when I remove the brighter backdrop.

Overal a strong movement toward darker munsel value thus far, I'll do more testing to morning when I have the daytime light to contend with
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post #7 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 08:34 PM
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Quote:
Cazten wrote: View Post
Thanks for the forumlas Harp,

Go figure i was racing out of the house to try some samples. Go to my parents where i had probably 2 screens worth of elektra left over in a paint can, and they through it out on accident.

Day of experimentation = over
Such is life...
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post #8 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 08:39 PM
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Don
 
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Quote:
Cazten wrote: View Post
So I checked the ots thread and found "Icon grey" n6.25

I went and had some mixed up and tossed it against my current screen with some paper sheets. Just to try and find a point of Refernce in contrast difference against my elektra screen.

It's making me think so far that I'll repaint with BW 6.4

In very low light ambient light so far blacks are definitely black. Far improved. Image pop isn't quite so far down as I might expect either. I've been running throw some movies and pausing around in areas. So far I notice large improvement in

Grass, rocks, plants, water. Greater depth separation with better blacks
Human hair, especially black/brown. Again it's e color separation depth
Night city and space scenes

I'd def prefer a slight bit more "pop" so I'll go BW reflective if I repaint. And while the image is overall slightly dimmer I know a lot of that will erase when I remove the brighter backdrop.

Overal a strong movement toward darker munsel value thus far, I'll do more testing to morning when I have the daytime light to contend with
Keep us posted on your progress.
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post #9 of 12 Old 03-07-13, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

An interesting observation.

One of my test prices is a finely sanded oak plywood piece. By virtue the it's not uniformly as flat and has wood grain you can see the sheen to the paint much much more easily. Even though you can see the slight wood grain the effect of the sheen is a dramatic gain boost I'm assuming.

The blacks are great, and the light colors are even more powerful than the background elektra. Much more powerful, it makes for a STRIKING image minus the hinted wood grain.


To be honest it makes me consider the possibility of a higher gloss overall mix if I could keep it from hotspoting. My impression is smaller screen = less hotspoting in general?


post edit::: I've noticed that changing angle in relation to the test piece center shows a rapid drop off in gain. Probably a 30ish degree viewing cone. Spectacular on axis but would wash out to normal otherwise
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post #10 of 12 Old 03-08-13, 08:06 PM
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Re: Elektra, taking it darker

Quote:
Cazten wrote: View Post
An interesting observation.

One of my test prices is a finely sanded oak plywood piece. By virtue the it's not uniformly as flat and has wood grain you can see the sheen to the paint much much more easily. Even though you can see the slight wood grain the effect of the sheen is a dramatic gain boost I'm assuming.

The blacks are great, and the light colors are even more powerful than the background elektra. Much more powerful, it makes for a STRIKING image minus the hinted wood grain.


To be honest it makes me consider the possibility of a higher gloss overall mix if I could keep it from hotspoting. My impression is smaller screen = less hotspoting in general?
An interesting question! I'm not aware of any tests that have been done along this line, but then there is a whale of a lot I don't know and I'm not ashamed to admit it. There is always something new to learn.

Quote:
post edit::: I've noticed that changing angle in relation to the test piece center shows a rapid drop off in gain. Probably a 30ish degree viewing cone. Spectacular on axis but would wash out to normal otherwise
This is ALWAYS the case with added gain, it's physics. Whenever you have a gain value that is greater than the screen color with a Lambertian surface (the flattest flat paint you can imagine) you WILL have a decrease in image brightness in the image that grows toward the edges and corners of the screen because the screen is totally passive (it cannot add brightness to the image by itself). This means that a person viewing the image from the center will see a dimmer image toward the edges and corners of the screen. Luckily the human eye/brain is great at compensating for this brightness decrease (which is also why we can be fooled into seeing a white image on a gray screen), but eventually a point is reached when the hot spotting becomes so great that it is detectable to the human eye. Just when this point is reached can vary from one person to another.
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