Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

Harpmaker:

I was writing my previous reply when you were writing your latest. I want to try what you suggest but I pause because I don't really know if I will be able to correctly tell. Any idea where I can get a sample of neutral grey? Also lighting has to play a big part when looking at these colors. I mean a 5000K bulb or what I like to call a blue light will look totally different than say a 2500K bulb right? When I went outside I could totally see there was some change to the paint. Which light temperature is best to calibrate in?

Thanks
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post #32 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:15 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

Just got off the phone to Createx and found out that about 6 moths ago they changed from using a liquid aluminum additive to a powdered one to make their aluminum bases. So yeah, the current problem is almost certainly the AAA-F. They are going to call me back tomorrow with additional info and I'll try to find out the lot number of the change. Mech and I will both get new bottles of AAA-F to see what changes have to be made to the BW™ base paint to make a neutral mix.

Thanks to all of you who have told us about this problem instead of just going with something else!!!
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post #33 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:34 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

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aiwa2child wrote: View Post
Harpmaker:

I was writing my previous reply when you were writing your latest. I want to try what you suggest but I pause because I don't really know if I will be able to correctly tell. Any idea where I can get a sample of neutral grey? Also lighting has to play a big part when looking at these colors. I mean a 5000K bulb or what I like to call a blue light will look totally different than say a 2500K bulb right? When I went outside I could totally see there was some change to the paint. Which light temperature is best to calibrate in?

Thanks
The term that applies to color changes due to light "temperature" changes is called Metamerism. The more neutral a gray is the less color change will be noted between different "Illuminants". The Illuminant (also called White Point) used in all video specs is D65 and this is the color temperature that calibration DVD's use to set color. While the 6500K CFL's you can get at the hardware store aren't D65 they are as close as you can get outside of a professional lab or a properly calibrated PJ.

As for samples of true neutral grays, the cheapest would be to go to a Michael's store and buy a tube of Liquitex BASICS Neutral Gray Value 5. This is an N5 paint. For other N values Golden makes Heavy Body acrylic paints in 2 oz. tubes that range from N8 to N2, but they aren't cheap. Before you go to Michael's search online for coupons for both Michael's and A.C. Moore (they take each others coupons). Many times you can find a 40% or 50% off coupon.
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post #34 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:37 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

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mechman wrote: View Post
Ouch! May be time to get C&S Ultra™ darker if need be.
That is doable Mech, but I would really like to stick with using an aluminum paint if we can.
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post #35 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

I might be able to persuade a worker friend at my Sherwin Williams to whip me up a quart batch of flat neutral gray paint for free. If I tell him I would like an RGB of 185,185,185 and take that paint home and paint a little on a piece of MDF that was left over could I use that as a reference? Is there anything else he would need to now or maybe a better way? Sorry to keep bothering you just really trying to get this theater back in one piece, my wife wants to watch The Hobbit, lol.
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post #36 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 03:57 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

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aiwa2child wrote: View Post
I might be able to persuade a worker friend at my Sherwin Williams to whip me up a quart batch of flat neutral gray paint for free. If I tell him I would like an RGB of 185,185,185 and take that paint home and paint a little on a piece of MDF that was left over could I use that as a reference? Is there anything else he would need to now or maybe a better way? Sorry to keep bothering you just really trying to get this theater back in one piece, my wife wants to watch The Hobbit, lol.
I asked a guy at a SW store if he could tint paint to an RGB formula and he said no so if your friend can do so I'd sure like to know how he does it.

SW 'Unique Gray' and SW 'Gray Screen' are fairly neutral grays of about N8. My sample jug of SW 'Unique Gray' was much more neutral than the EasyRGB or SW databases state.

Be sure to use outdoor light to match colors due to metamerism.
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post #37 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

Harpmaker you are right, they can't tint paint using an RGB formula. But for 3 bucks the store manager said he would get me a test sample of SW 'Gray Screen' for color matching, 6"x6" square. Hope this works. And please when you find out about the AAA-F and any changes that need to be made to the formula, please, please keep me in the loop I plan on making another screen on our new house here in a couple years.

Thanks for the help.
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post #38 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 04:19 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

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aiwa2child wrote: View Post
Harpmaker you are right, they can't tint paint using an RGB formula. But for 3 bucks the store manager said he would get me a test sample of SW 'Gray Screen' for color matching, 6"x6" square. Hope this works. And please when you find out about the AAA-F and any changes that need to be made to the formula, please, please keep me in the loop I plan on making another screen on our new house here in a couple years.

Thanks for the help.
Will gladly keep you in the loop!

BTW, you would only be giving up a bit of ambient light absorption ability, and maybe a small lose in image brightness, by just going with an N8 gray instead of BW™.
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post #39 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

Harpmaker, are you saying to go ahead and use the Sherwin Williams 'Grey Screen' paint mix or just use the 'SW Grey Screen Mix' as a comparison and add some more AAA-F to my recent mix until it reaches an approximate N8 or N7.5 when compared to the SW 'Grey Screen'? Confused yet?

I could have bought the Sherwin Williams quart of 'Grey Screen' paint for $7.95, please dont tell me I wasted all that cash on AAA-F. I actually have a quart of SW 'Grey Screen' but was under the assumption that Black Widow destroyed it in testing. A quart is plenty to cover a 110" 16:9 screen. What do you think...

Use the quart of Sherwin Williams 'Grey Screen' I have..?

or

Use my recently mixed bermuda beigle and AAA-F and add more AAA-F until it looks the same color as the SW paint mix?

Thanks
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post #40 of 96 Old 04-29-13, 11:48 PM
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Re: Help with the Black Widow PFG DIY Projection Screen

Quote:
aiwa2child wrote: View Post
Harpmaker, are you saying to go ahead and use the Sherwin Williams 'Grey Screen' paint mix or just use the 'SW Grey Screen Mix' as a comparison and add some more AAA-F to my recent mix until it reaches an approximate N8 or N7.5 when compared to the SW 'Grey Screen'? Confused yet?

I could have bought the Sherwin Williams quart of 'Grey Screen' paint for $7.95, please dont tell me I wasted all that cash on AAA-F. I actually have a quart of SW 'Grey Screen' but was under the assumption that Black Widow destroyed it in testing. A quart is plenty to cover a 110" 16:9 screen. What do you think...

Use the quart of Sherwin Williams 'Grey Screen' I have..?

or

Use my recently mixed bermuda beigle and AAA-F and add more AAA-F until it looks the same color as the SW paint mix?

Thanks
First off, BW™ (when it's working as it should) will provide a brighter image than an N8 gray screen while at the same time absorbing more ambient light than an N8 gray thus increasing perceived image contrast and black level. This is because of the aluminum in the BW™. There IS a visible difference between a BW™ screen and an N8 gray screen, but it's not a day-and-night difference. I think saying BW™ "destroys" an N8 gray screen is a bit of an overstatement, but then that is what makes horse races because such things are quite subjective. All I was saying is that a N8 gray screen might work well for you IF you don't get your BW™ mix straightened out by the time you need to make your screen. You can definitely use the 'Gray Screen' panel to help try to color-correct your BW™ mix by adding more AAA-F.

However...

That brings us to the topic of adding more AAA-F to your BW™ mix to make it darker and grayer. Both Mech and I are pretty much shooting in the dark here since we don't really know how "off" BW™ is when made with the new AAA-F. From what I understand by both your and olwe's posts the new AAA-F doesn't darken the 'Bermuda Beige' much at all. If this is the case then adding AAA-F alone may not be the answer. Olwe is sending me some samples to measure and I'll know more after that is done.

We WILL get this situation straightened out and BW™ back on track, but perhaps not in a 2-week period.
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