Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #1 of 12 Old 12-31-13, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
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Smile Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Hey there

i'm interested in trying out Black Widow Ultra. Very interesting work reading through the threads!

Because of the long term experience i would have chosen the old formula BW (with old AAA) - but i had no luck with any shop i emailed regarding old stock.

So, Black Widow Ultra it is.



I want to paint one or two test panels to be safe... using MDF-sheets.


My question is:

Which paint and color should i get to get a result wich is as similar as possible to the classic Black widow (Non-Ultra) mix? I'm from germany. Any suggestions?


Thank you and happy new year!

Greetings



Side info:

Projector: Sony VPL-HW55
Future screen size: 110" or 124"
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post #2 of 12 Old 12-31-13, 01:33 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

If you want exactly the same shade of the old formula aka RGB=185, i would suggest a 1:1 mix composed by Grau 20 and Grau 15 from Caparol paints, then adding the AAA.
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post #3 of 12 Old 12-31-13, 06:36 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post
Which paint and color should i get to get a result wich is as similar as possible to the classic Black widow (Non-Ultra) mix? I'm from germany. Any suggestions?

Thank you and happy new year!
Welcome to HTS!

Yiannis is much more familiar with the brands of paints that are available in Europe so he is giving you good info on paint color and brand. I know we have had people make BW™ screens (old version) in Germany successfully before, but I don't remember the paint they used... my bad. I do know that many paint brands outside the U.S. can be made is Glidden colors since Glidden paint is made by PPG Industries that has manufacturing in 70 countries (including Germany ). One of the paints in Germany is Sigma Coatings. The Glidden color 00NN 53/000 . . . "Veil" will give you the color of the original Black Widow™ with or without adding the new AAA-F, but adding the AAA-F will increase the gain of the mix a bit.
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post #4 of 12 Old 01-01-14, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Smile Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Hi again,

happy new year and thanks for your answers!

I'll get 480ml of new-formula AAA this week.

Maybe i can get some of the grey paint in the next few days, so the testing can begin.

To be honest, i'm still unsure which paint to get. But your information should be helpful narrowing it down. More questions to come. :-)


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.

Another question:
What about the type of paint? Original Black widow was based on latex paint, right? (maybe the international naming differences are a little confusing)
I read that some fellow users from germany used dispersion paint (matte). (for exampe this here
Is it possible that now with BW Ultra, which only needs neutral grey, it's not that critical to have the exact same type of paint as with the original (with the previously required exact beige color which was needed)? Or is that a wrong assumption?



What i could get in a timely manner from a DIY warehouse or paint dealer is standard-good quality matte "dipsersion paint" mixed by their machine in my chosen color.
We have almost all german DIY stores around (bauhaus, hornbach, obi, max bahr) as well as some smaller paint dealers. Will check starting tomorrow.

If this would be worth a shot for testing - what exact color code/system should i tell them? (orig. black widow had the beige ncs code).
while only needing neutral grey should i go with simple rgb code 185 185 185 or is there something else which is more suited as input for a standard paint mixing machine? (maybe some slightly different code as the "veil" color code? which i don't even know which color system it is. The "veil" code converted to rgb is 184 184 182 or is it 190 190 189 as mentioned in your thread here?)


Please bear eith me. thanks for your patience

Last edited by parking spot; 01-01-14 at 08:56 PM.
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post #5 of 12 Old 01-01-14, 09:49 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post
Hi again,

happy new year and thanks for your answers!

I'll get 480ml of new-formula AAA this week.

Maybe i can get some of the grey paint in the next few days, so the testing can begin.

To be honest, i'm still unsure which paint to get. But your information should be helpful narrowing it down. More questions to come. :-)


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.

Another question:
What about the type of paint? Original Black widow was based on latex paint, right? (maybe the international naming differences are a little confusing)
I read that some fellow users from germany used dispersion paint (matte). (for exampe this here
Is it possible that now with BW Ultra, which only needs neutral grey, it's not that critical to have the exact same type of paint as with the original (with the previously required exact beige color which was needed)? Or is that a wrong assumption?
The main thing is that whatever base paint you use MUST be water-based and not solvent-based or oil-based. The "latex" thing isn't important and I get the feeling that "latex" is a paint term used in North America only, but it is essentially the same as vinyl paints in England and the dispersion paints you talk of. "Latex" paints have nothing to do with latex rubber. Yeah, it's strange.

The original BW™ mix NEEDED a color-corrected base paint so the final mix would be neutral gray; that base color turned out to be a pinkish beige. The new AAA-F doesn't need a strong color-corrected base paint since the aluminum in it has been coated to not react with the paint; a regular neutral gray will work fine.

Quote:
What i could get in a timely manner from a DIY warehouse or paint dealer is standard-good quality matte "dipsersion paint" mixed by their machine in my chosen color.
We have almost all german DIY stores around (bauhaus, hornbach, obi, max bahr) as well as some smaller paint dealers. Will check starting tomorrow.

If this would be worth a shot for testing - what exact color code/system should i tell them? (orig. black widow had the beige ncs code).
What color system do your paint stores use? RAL? Basically, tell them you need a true neutral gray paint with as little (preferably no) Chroma or Hue. Also find out if they can match Glidden or Sherwin-Williams colors in their paint.

Also try this German site for Akzo Nobel to see if you can get one of their paints. They should be able to match the Dulux color 00NN 53/000 clouded slate 2, grey steel 2 which is a color for making a N7.5 BW Ultra™.

Quote:
while only needing neutral grey should i go with simple rgb code 185 185 185 or is there something else which is more suited as input for a standard paint mixing machine?
No tinting (color mixing) machine I know of can use RGB values, which is a real shame. Unless you have a national paint color system like NCS or RAL then each paint manufacturer uses their own tinting formula system.

Quote:
(maybe some slightly different code as the "veil" color code? which i don't even know which color system it is.
That is a Glidden paint color name. The number that goes with it (00NN 53/000) is used by Dulux as well (and I hope other Akzo Nobel paint brands).

Quote:
The "veil" code converted to rgb is 184 184 182 or is it 190 190 189 as mentioned in your thread here?)
Referring to our Sticky thread on neutral grays, the N value given is determined by the numeric code part of the name and the RGB and CIELAB values are from a sample of the paint we have gotten and measured. As you can tell they don't match perfectly. Going by the numeric code (the number is the Y value in the XYZ color space) the RGB would be 192, 192, 192.

Quote:
Please bear eith me. thanks for your patience
No problem!
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post #6 of 12 Old 01-02-14, 04:40 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.
Hello!! I believe you will find available 0.7L containers, such as these i used.
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post #7 of 12 Old 01-04-14, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

@Harpmaker
Thanks for the additional info!
480ml AAA(new) arrived today. But other stuff keeps me busy, so no base paint yet.

I found some paint-dealers within my reach wich sell custom-color paint with RAL, NCS, Sikkens (also a akzo nobel brand) & Sigma input-codes.


In case they all can't match the Glidden-code but only NCS - is there a NCS (maybe, but not a accurate match?) or even RAL-code (i think not) for 00NN 53/000?
Maybe NCS S 2500-N? But that's N7.6 instead of N7.8 (Veil), correct?




I'll get in contact to see wich dealer looks most promising. :-)


@Yiannis1970
Thanks for the hint! Do you know what name the small Caparol containers had exactly? Maybe a photo?

Last edited by parking spot; 01-04-14 at 09:16 AM.
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post #8 of 12 Old 01-04-14, 11:22 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Grau 20 is a N8 meanwhile Grau 15 a N7 gray paint. Both of them are extremely neutral and after mixing the result is a perfect N7.5.

Finish matte, of course.
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post #9 of 12 Old 03-05-14, 05:25 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
The original BW™ mix NEEDED a color-corrected base paint so the final mix would be neutral gray; that base color turned out to be a pinkish beige. The new AAA-F doesn't need a strong color-corrected base paint since the aluminum in it has been coated to not react with the paint; a regular neutral gray will work fine.
I don't mean to bring back an old thread, but I'm trying to understand the new BW bersus old BW. I've done 10+ screens of the old, mixed with the Beige paint and watched the combination come to a beautiful gray with aluminum flakes to make the contrast I now crave.

New BW, we're adding the same color AAA to a Gray..... How does that combination bring us to the same BW Gray when we needed Beige as the base ?
Can I expect the same results from the old BW screens ?
I'm running a 135" screen, with Universal Gray cause it was temporary, but now it's a permanent setup.
Thanks
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post #10 of 12 Old 03-05-14, 09:28 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Plasma George wrote: View Post
I don't mean to bring back an old thread, but I'm trying to understand the new BW bersus old BW. I've done 10+ screens of the old, mixed with the Beige paint and watched the combination come to a beautiful gray with aluminum flakes to make the contrast I now crave.

New BW, we're adding the same color AAA to a Gray..... How does that combination bring us to the same BW Gray when we needed Beige as the base ?
Createx started using a different aluminum in their AAA-F to decrease the chances of the paint reacting if it received too much agitation during shipping. The new aluminum is actually coated with a clear substance that prevents anything from chemically reacting with it. One of the unforeseen results was that that coating also changed the way AAA-F reacted when mixed with other paints. The new AAA-F will still change the color of a base paint, but it is WAY less than the old AAA-F.

Quote:
Can I expect the same results from the old BW screens ?
I'm running a 135" screen, with Universal Gray cause it was temporary, but now it's a permanent setup.
Thanks
We have not done enough testing of the new AAA-F to specifically guarantee that Black Widow Ultra™ (which uses the new AAA-F) will give the exact same results as the old BW™ did, but that is at the head of our "To Do" list. In the small samples I have tested for color the new aluminum IS still working.

The new AAA-F seems to have smaller aluminum flakes than the old so sparkles in the screen mix are not there unless the paint is wet and you look really close. This is actually a good thing and now that the new AAA-F doesn't affect the color as much means that we can make BWU ™ mixes in many more shades of gray than was possible with the old BW™.
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