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post #91 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 03:09 PM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

The product is "BlackJack Aluminum Roof Coating #71"
" The Best and Brightest etc..." I double checked and it is water based. The price at Lowes is $37.50, but the department manager told me that sales were slow so they were going to discontinue it at this store. He gave it to me for $17.00 to get rid of it, so taking it back is not much of an option for me.
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post #92 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

$17 wasn't that bad then.

I do believe that has fibers in it too, maybe not though, I couldn't find #71 on their website either. Usually roof coatings do have other things in it in addition to just the binder, water, and aluminum.

You might be able to find something that works with it, but honestly we would have no idea what to use as a base since we have no data on it. If it's anything like the other aluminums, you'll want to use a warm white, but I can't promise how it will turn out. Look at it this way, you have more than enough to play with until you find the right combination

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #93 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 08:30 PM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

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<^..^>Smokey Joe wrote: View Post
Good question.

With a 0.8~1.2 screen it is unlikely to see much difference, however moving further away either direction and you alter the "L" in Lab enough so that the light that scatters more readily,ie Blue end of the spectrum, will behave differently than the Red end of the spectrum, then the ab functions may drift when viewing off axis.

We are looking uniformity across the width here.
Not to nit pick. But 0.8-1.2 is a 50% difference in gain!! That alters L alot. If we say unity gain +/- 5%, that would make more sense to me. That isn't too difficult to hit. It just seems pointless, to me, after doing all that work to get a neutral gray that you would ruin it with such a gain spread.
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post #94 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 08:32 PM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

On another note, what is the difference between using aluminum flakes and the silver mica flakes that I have been using? I easily attained a neutral, or really close to neutral, paint mix with them.
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post #95 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 10:21 PM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

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post #96 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

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benven wrote:
On another note, what is the difference between using aluminum flakes and the silver mica flakes that I have been using? I easily attained a neutral, or really close to neutral, paint mix with them.
From what I see you're only using .27 ounces of the Pearl Silver for a quart of the main mix. That's why you don't see a color shifting. That's less than 1&#37; of the entire main mix. The other 'popular' pearl/poly topcoating mix uses 2-4 ounces of craft grade mica. That's 6-12% of the entire mix, and a significant difference. And if you agree that is a big difference, BW PFG uses a whopping 20% of the aluminum component for a 40oz mix. I'm positive if we had 20% mica/pearl in any mix it would be unwatchable.

As far as aluminum over mica- One is a non-interference, the other an interference method, which is another factor and why I was so interested in it.

With lighter colors micas are a bit more forgiving but color shifting is still there. When things go darker color shifts are more apparent.

With just a 10X magnification the color separation is easily seen with Jacquard Pearl-Ex Silver.


This is just a fact of what mica (pearls) do. It's why they are used by artists. Non-interference materials are opaque and do not allow light to pass through them, so the light is not refracted. Mica is a trade off that's been used for years. It makes for a brighter image, but causes color shifting. Aluminum (non-interference) also creates a brighter image but doesn't have the classice mica rainbow color shift effect.

Quote:
benven wrote:
Not to nit pick. But 0.8-1.2 is a 50% difference in gain!! That alters L alot. If we say unity gain +/- 5%, that would make more sense to me. That isn't too difficult to hit. It just seems pointless, to me, after doing all that work to get a neutral gray that you would ruin it with such a gain spread.
Unmolested neutral gray in a flat or matte finish is naturally around a .8 or lower gain depending on how dark of a shade it is. Going from .8 to .9 is pretty easy. Getting to 1.0 from say a .8 surface gain starts to have an effect on things, but still not enough that the average person would notice. Going from .8 to 1.2 and the viewing cone not only starts to become noticeable, but specular gain starts to overtake the native 'gain' of the shade of gray alone. Once you breach a .5 increase in gain viewing cone starts to drop faster and off axis color shifting becomes more apparent unless careful steps are taken to counteract the color shift. There are no known steps that can compensate for viewing cone as gain goes up, well not totally true... that's when a torus screen comes into play... It is however true when it comes to flat screens.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #97 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 10:59 PM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

I have a question about the prism effect of mica: Since my PJ only has red, green and blue filters on the color wheel, in theory (there's that word again ), I shouldn't see any prism effect even if it is present because no "white" light is hitting the screen.

Do most of the more expensive, or better, PJ's have a white (or clear) section on their color wheels that this is so important?
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post #98 of 1197 Old 01-31-08, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

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I have a question about the prism effect of mica: Since my PJ only has red, green and blue filters on the color wheel, in theory (there's that word again ), I shouldn't see any prism effect even if it is present because no "white" light is hitting the screen.

Do most of the more expensive, or better, PJ's have a white (or clear) section on their color wheels that this is so important?
Even with a DLP that just has an RGB color wheel, it is additive color. All colors combined create white in an additive color system. With paints it's a subtractive system and when you add all colors you get black.

Rarely does a projector put out just one of the primary colors. It is creating a complex image of light and colors created from the primary colors in the color wheel or the LCDs in an LCD projector. When light is refracted, it is broken back down to it's individual colors, hence the rainbow prism effect happens. I'm not being argumentative at all, this is the nature of mica is all.

Iridescent materials are covered in detail here.

There are also different grades and quality of mica, which also are a factor. Lower grade mica/pearls tend to have less consistancy between flake sizes, thickness, density of how many flakes per bottle... lots of variables, but they all do have a common characteristic...

Aluminum is a non-interference that is also very bright and reflective, which is exactly what sparked the interest in using it. We can go darker in shade, add more aluminum, and still maintain whites, blacks, and color reproduction.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #99 of 1197 Old 02-01-08, 10:41 AM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

Thanks for the reply Bill. I want to be clear that I'm not being argumentative either, really, I'm just trying to understand this correctly.

Great treatise on iridescence!

Perhaps Texas Instruments is simplifying the matter too much, but their explanation of how a single-chip DLP projector works ( http://www.dlp.com/tech/what.aspx ) says, in both text and graphic, that the DLP chip is struck by only red, green and blue light (the light that passes through the color filters on the color wheel), thus only red green and blue light hits our screens using such a PJ, and only one color at a time. It is the "persistence of vision" of our eyes that makes us see the full visible light spectrum. As I'm sure you know, it is the same phenomenon that lets us watch a CRT television without seeing the even and odd scan fields, but rather one image that doesn't flicker.

If what T.I. says is true, I don't understand how iridescence can come into play with such a PJ.
You have MUCH more experience with this stuff than I do, and if you say iridescence is a problem I believe you.

The next time I have my PJ in my "lab" I'll do some testing and see if I can work this out so I finally "get it".
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post #100 of 1197 Old 02-01-08, 12:02 PM
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re: Black Widow PFG - the Discussion - Black Widow

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From what I see you're only using .27 ounces of the Pearl Silver for a quart of the main mix. That's why you don't see a color shifting. That's less than 1% of the entire main mix. The other 'popular' pearl/poly topcoating mix uses 2-4 ounces of craft grade mica. That's 6-12% of the entire mix, and a significant difference. And if you agree that is a big difference, BW PFG uses a whopping 20% of the aluminum component for a 40oz mix. I'm positive if we had 20% mica/pearl in any mix it would be unwatchable.

As far as aluminum over mica- One is a non-interference, the other an interference method, which is another factor and why I was so interested in it.

With lighter colors micas are a bit more forgiving but color shifting is still there. When things go darker color shifts are more apparent.

This is just a fact of what mica (pearls) do. It's why they are used by artists. Non-interference materials are opaque and do not allow light to pass through them, so the light is not refracted. Mica is a trade off that's been used for years. It makes for a brighter image, but causes color shifting. Aluminum (non-interference) also creates a brighter image but doesn't have the classice mica rainbow color shift effect.

Thanks Bill. I guess I should have explained myself a bit better. I should have stated....what is the difference between aluminum and silver mica when put into a paint mix or media? The refractive properties of coated mica flakes and the reflective properties of aluminum must change. I have no scientific proof of this. But using common sense, when mica flakes are mixed into a paint or some other media, how do their properties change? The refractive properties would have to b e different? mech has stated he did not see the prism effect with the mica powders I have used. I assume the reflective properties of the aluminum flakes change. Maybe this requires more discussion/investigation.

And yes, my bad mech, I shouldn't have hijacked this thread
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