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post #61 of 1197 Old 01-23-08, 06:37 PM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

My apologies for being ignorant in not understanding some terms, but I saw reference to DICE and Poker in relation to the PFG testing. What is Dice and Poker? Is it the same Henry 558?
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post #62 of 1197 Old 01-23-08, 11:58 PM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

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mechman wrote: View Post
Dice is HE558. Poker was Black Jack.

mech
"Black Jack is a brand name, they have a number of products. The particular Aluminum paint by black Jack that Wbassett used has been discontinued and all that is available is what is in individual stores inventory. That is why Henry 558 was substituted."

-Page 5,296 of subsection E; Vol. 375 - Encyclopedia Galactica
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post #63 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 08:13 AM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

Got it. So if someone has better luck finding Black Jack (what type?, number?) locally, it would also work I assume or were tests not completed?

Nevertheless, in my area I doubt I will find even that
 
post #64 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow PFG

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tradewinds wrote: View Post
Got it. So if someone has better luck finding Black Jack (what type?, number?) locally, it would also work I assume or were tests not completed?

Nevertheless, in my area I doubt I will find even that
HE558, Black Jack, what mech is working on, or if a base can be found for the Auto Air Aluminum- everything would be an online purchase anyway. (I want to make a note: HE558 is the only officially recommended aluminum right now. It has been tested with the recommended base paints, Black Jack is a discontinued product and the rest haven't been tested or are being tested now)

Even the popular pearl/poly method elsewhere can't be found locally by everyone and lot of people have to order it online. It is an unfortunate step for BW PFG but well worth it. If a person absolutely can't wait then they can go with an OTS neutral gray or white and that will serve them well, and if they want to upgrade later on they can. Or since they will be priming anyway (this would mainly be for new people setting up for the first time though) they could do what I recommend while they are waiting for the aluminum portion to arrive- use the Kilz2 primed screen area as a unity gain white screen, calibrate and get used to their projector and settings for a few days and see what modes they like and don't like and areas they want to see improved. By the time they are done with that they should have their aluminum paint.

Like I said, some people don't want to wait so if they need a screen quick, they can always use an OTS, I'm not abandoning neutral grays at all. They are still excellent screen options. Besides, a first time setup really should take some time calibrating and getting a feel for what the projector looks like on a white screen. For some people they may decide not to go any further, but everyone really should see their projector on a white screen first to get a baseline of its performance. How else can a person know if it's better or not? Better is subjective too... whites will always take a hit on any gray screen, even commercial screens, but blacks and ambient viewing are much better. Some people like pure whites, some like dark blacks, and some have a need to have lights on at times or even watch during the day. Without a baseline, it doesn't matter if it's Black Widow PFG, a simple OTS gray, laminate or commercial screen... how can anyone know if they made an improvement or not?

That always drove me nuts when people would recommend a gray screen to everyone as soon as they 'walked through the door' so to speak. Of course someone that's new to projectors is going to think it looks incredible, especially if they've never seen a real screen or anything other than their projector shooting an image on their cream colored off white wall. If you're interested in Black Widow, we'll try to help you with that, if you're interested in any other method or even a commercial screen we'll try to help a person there too. We're not locked into just this or any one method or screen.

... and you can think of it this way... If a person is buying a commercial screen, unless they have a local HT shop that carries the exact screen they want and has it in stock, they have to wait for that to show up too!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #65 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 09:26 AM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #66 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow PFG

Honestly we only tested two things with Black Jack. Seeing that it was discontinued and whatever is on the shelf is all there is it didn't seem worth spending much time on it. I'm sure we could have found something, but why bother with something that is basically unavailable?

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post #67 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow PFG

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tonyvdb wrote: View Post
I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.
Tony that's great to hear! Any screen shots by chance?

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #68 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 10:38 AM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
I just want to say that I tried the suggestions here in this thread and it was very noticeable. I was using Behr paint "silver screen" and thought it was really good but after doing the repaint as described here the picture was noticably better.
I'm in the exact same boat. I have a Polywall Behr Silverscreen screen and wanted to see how much an upgrade the PFG would give me.

I was going to Poly the Silverscreen to see how it performs. Screenshots wold be awesome Tony.
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post #69 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow PFG

Bidzer I've had a UPW screen, Behr Silver Screen, Designer White, SW Gray Screen, a custom gray... and a grunch load of test panels (not as many as mech though!).

Silver Screen does lean a little blue, some are fine with it, some have problems. It also can depend on the store variance too. One thing to point out is even Behr doesn't call this a neutral gray...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trash talking SS, just pointing out even the manufacturer calls it a 'Blue Neutral Family Range' color. (Whatever that is- neutral is not a color, blue is a color ) You have to keep in mind Behr is selling paint for home owners, not a screen paint... and a true gray is considered ugly to most people, so they make it more visually appealing. It's not a bad option and falls within the acceptable DIY screen range, but there are better simple OTS options out there.

Don't go solely on what I say or anyone for that matter, look at everything as a whole and make your own decision.

Here is data on Behr Silver Screen.


And here is one of the Black Widow data charts again...

This makes it a little easier to see that there is a slight blue push with Silver Screen. For some it may not be a problem, for others it could be.

Anyway, I was one that had some problems with SS. It looked good, but something was always slightly off with the color balance. I'd calibrate, try to adjust, and get one thing fixed but then something else would be off.

Sherwin Williams Gray Screen just seemed to work better for me and my tastes. With that said, I saw an improvement going from Silver Screen in a flat finish to Gray Screen in a matte finish, and BW PFG blows Gray Screen out of the water in my opinion. Trust me on this too, as the person that found Gray Screen and as much as I love it (and Winter Mountain) this is better. Color reproduction is just as accurate but have a bolder look, Whites are just as white as GS (and GS has some pretty impressive whites), shadow detail is better and there is more depth and a 3D look- especially with HD content, and there is no contest with blacks.

Here's a secret... the darker your blacks look the whiter your whites will look.

PFG does not increase CR, that's impossible, but it does help with not only perceived Contrast Ratio, but I feel it more accurately shows what the projector is producing.

Aside from the phenomenal blacks and ambient performance, one of the best traits of this screen is it isn't prone to color shifting like mica is. That's not being negative, that's just the nature of pearls. By definition iridescence is color shifting by refracting light. Aluminum is a non-interference material meaning it doesn't 'interfere' or refract the light hitting it- therefore no prism effects or color shifting.

An interesting thing to note too is so far nobody has reported any hot spotting and some of us are hitting this with some pretty bright projectors. So far from 1000 lumens up to 2000 lumens. For those with projectors that aren't as bright they may want to use the white base over the Winter Mist base, but we plan on getting more testing on different bases too.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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post #70 of 1197 Old 01-24-08, 12:12 PM
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Re: Black Widow PFG

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wbassett wrote: View Post
Tony that's great to hear! Any screen shots by chance?
I will see if I can find time to do that in the next day or so (I have to finish working helping my 14 year old daughter with her science project first)

I did waiver off the actual recommendations as I used Behr Ultra pure white eggshell as a base and added the Behr silver paint that they sell. My projector is only 800 lumens so I hoped that the slightly reflective nature of eggshell would help. Maybe I should have gone with flat?

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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