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jaseskiwi 03-12-11 12:25 PM

screen paint for new zealand

Hi all, my name is jase from NZ. I have read hours and hours of this research and love it. Well done to you all.

I am trying to make some paint for here in NZ. I have a new epson 8350 ceiling mount at 5.41 metres and sit at same distance. I watch mostly sport ( maybe not the best choice PJ being lcd? ) I have from light from daytime to no light at night with light walls and white roof. I like bright pics with loads of pop so I use bright mode which I have read at my zoom is about 1500 lumins? I also like big pic and so far I get great pop when reduced to 120"image. I want to try and get this at 140+" though. I am using a DIY commercial screen paint from the USA labelled, low contrast (1.25 gain) it looks good but paint was from 6 years ago so went on all uneven hence the need to re sand and start again.

I have found a fine aluminum base paint in NZ, its called enamacryl metallic, it is rgb 125 125 127 satin finish waterbourne
then for the main paint resene space cote flat or satin enamel. waterbourne

I have played around in photoshop ( taking resene colours for base and overlaying 25% 40% and 50% with the aluminum ) I dont know if these numbers work in real life? but if they do I get rgb of 192 193 914 ,190 191 192,

It seems to have a lot less sparkle when done 4:1 than my current pro paint although I have only spot tested it with finger painting so not really a test at all.


q. I was going to add about 10-15% poly to my 4:1 alluminum mix to try and get some extra pop gain and a smoother rolled surface but it seems this maybe a bad idea?

q. should I stick with flat paint or is satin a good idea when mixing with the aluminum paint as in the BW wars it seemed the glossier base paints ( Matte/enamel ) performed better?

q. could it be a better idea to keep with the flat and do a 4:2 mix or a 60%-40% mix with the satin aluminum. Has anyone played around with this in the BW AAA? could this lead to hotspots?

The reason to try and up the mix with more aluminum/higher gloss is to get more gain/brightness and pop

I realise that I really need to do some test boards but with limited time and money I wanted to try and narrow it down to 1-2 options before I start.

I would be very appreciative for any feedback.

cheers Jase

Harpmaker 03-12-11 02:54 PM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

Hi Jase, welcome to HTS!

Since we don't have access to the same paints you are using we can only speak in generalities.

First off, the color neutrality of an aluminum paint doesn't mean it will stay neutral when mixed with other paints. That was one of the many surprises we ran into when we started developing screen mixes. Aluminum paints have a tendency to push a mix blue (no, we don't know why). This is the reason our base paint for Black Widow™ is a pinkish-beige color, it offsets the blue push of the aluminum and results in a very neutral mix.

No, adding the RGB values of two paints and correcting for percentages doesn't work for determining the final color of the mix. I wish it were that easy. There simply is no easy mathematical way to do this.

In our experience, adding too much aluminum to a mix results in a graininess in the projected image. The amount of aluminum to cause this phenomenon will likely vary depending on the size of the aluminum particles in the paint. This can only be determined by testing.

Adding polyurethane to a mix is generally a bad idea since every one we have tested adds yellow to the mix and continues to deepen in yellow as the screen ages thus producing a yellowish screen. Also, chemically urethane paints are not acrylic paints and while it MAY be safe to combine them they are different critters. It's possible to mix oil and water, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. If you want to add something to make the paint flow better and increase drying time I would suggest adding something designed for that purpose such as Floetrol, I don't know if this is available to you or not.

Added gloss is a way to increase the gain of a mix, but if taken too far you will get hot spotting. Most flat/matte paints have similar gloss levels, but finishes marked as Eggshell or Satin can vary considerably between paint companies, or even between paint lines within a single company. The only real way to find out is to make up a test panel and look at it. To get an intermediate gloss, just mix a higher gloss paint to one with a lower gloss (it's best to stay within the same brand of paint).

The developers of BW™ (I was only a beta tester for that mix) didn't try to make a mix with the absolute highest gain. They designed a mix that had increased gain, but still had an extremely wide viewing cone so it would have the most utility in home theaters. Mixes with gains high enough to almost hot spot (or even hot spot) are niche mixes at best since most people want a screen that looks good no matter where they sit in the theater. There are places for such high gain mixes, just like there are circumstances when commercial screens such as the Black Diamond II or SuperNova are desirable, most people don't want to put up with the negative aspects of such screens (limited viewing cone and/or color shifting) to get the added gain.

jaseskiwi 03-12-11 04:17 PM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

Thanks for your help. It would be great if you could tell me or let me know where to look for the rgb values of AAA as I could then look at that in comparison to my aluminum base fine of 125 125 127 to get an idea of some neutrals I can blend if with to get tested somewhere. Hopefully aluminum base paints change the rgb blue values in a similar amount. I am having trouble to find someone to test the neutral and lrv spectrum curves. My local stores say they can colour match a paint but dont seem to be able to give me other details on the spectro. Otherwise I guess now I know my calculations from online rgb and photoshop dont relate to real life I may have to take the big gamble that my aluminum I have performs similar to AAA and just get bermuda beige and add the two and hope it looks good. So many variables I was hoping to avoid how much aluminum flek in paint what size and shape it is how much it shows up reflects with my paint how close to neutral etc. and much more.

Problem is I can get valspar or AAA in NZ and to bring in cost AAA would be about $50 US landed per 16oz( I can live with that.

The Valspar is a different story a lot of weight so shipping would be just to much like $150 US

Do you think the BW is right for my PJ and conditions outlined above

I was going to use a NZ flat enamel but after reading the BW clones ( copy ) I see the results there concluded that you could get a neutral grey comparing vary close or better than the copy's. I also saw there the results from the poly which looked in pics so close to my to the real BW thats why I was vary curious about this as I could simply mix with a neutral grey of the scale I preferred.

cheers Jase

Harpmaker 03-12-11 07:28 PM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

I think you can use a color much closer to home. Look for Dulux 'Half Ellen' in a flat or matte finish. This paint brand and color are available in Australia so I'm hoping you can get it too. It is close to the same color as PPG Bermuda Beige and has been reported to work well to make BW™.

As for importing AAA-F, that is an option; but I would recommend at least trying some of your Resene aluminum paint in the same 4:1 ratio and see how it looks.

If you would like to make test samples up of your experiments I'm sure either Mech or myself would be happy to test them with our spectrophotometers. All it would cost you is first class postage to the U.S. for the samples (which fit in a regular letter envelope). All we need is a 2 or 3 cm sample to test. If you are interested just PM either, or both, of us for our addresses and we will provide detailed prep and shipping instructions. :T

jaseskiwi 03-12-11 11:07 PM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

Hi, thanks for that. I can get the bermuda beige in Dulux paints no problem they have flat or low sheen/satin I think. The issue there was that from tests Ive read on here im lead to believe that it may not be worth all the extra cost over getting a neutral grey if I dont use the valspar ultra premium flat enamel. What are your thoughts here?

As far as the aluminum paint here goes it is a lot darker than AAA at 125 125 127. so would it even possible at 4:1 to get it light enough. even with white in the 245 range? they make a silver aluminum paint but it looks a lot courser fleak

cheers Jase

<^..^>Smokey Joe 03-12-11 11:33 PM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

Hi, been a while since I posted last.

Jaseskiwi I see you are chch too, a bit wobbly for painting wit our earthquakes :blink:,The reality is simple thinks work best, without stomping on many peoples hard work I think I can sum up most screen experiments as exhausting work for small gains.

I actually just had to throw out piles of aluminium paste and various other ingredients from playing round with paints due to the quakes and my home being prepared for demolition in the not to distant future:sad:
I been down the road with those metalic paints aswell, really no gains for the money.

Anyway, simply, dulux vivid white is just about perfect for spectral response and the best I found for a white.
Next for a grey screen use dulux Tomas Tallis 474, this does push towards blue however it is a linear push.

If you use one of the above, for pop use the white, for some contrast effects of better black (deeper gamma) use the TT474. You could dilute the TT474 with vivid white (50/50) to be somewhere between.

Overall the best gains are though calibration because projection and screens are a two piece gig.
It so happens I am isf certified and run a Business, Masterpiece Calibration Ltd (www.mastercal.co.nz) and since you are Chch I can help you easily here.

jaseskiwi 03-13-11 03:08 AM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

It's a shame about your home mate. We survived this latest one fine in Darfield the 1st one was the worst out here by far. you need a bed?

So did you try the BW at all in any of our paints before you concluded you got little gains

Have you tried any of the professional screen paints to compare?

Also did you try the resene aluminum fine?

resene have some very close to neutral greys in the N8 N9 range using space cote which I believe peter jackson uses a bit?

I have diy home theatre low contrast 1.25 gain at the moment im guessing its around a N8 muddy look so im guessing pretty neutral it looks pretty good with blacks, whites a bit grey. good with normal daylight but looks grainy at night when watching rugby etc? It has a lot of aluminium flecks when your up close. I have to use PJ in bright mode to watch sport though to get good full coloured bright pop picture back.

So Im worried that if I dont have the aluminium or poly ill loose the gain?

if I go resene they have flat or low sheen enamel what do you think there.

So in your opinion would you just stick with the neutral grey or buy in some AAA ($70 landed ) I cant find anywhere here. and put with Dulux or resene.

My problem is if i dont have a way of testing the rgb and lrv spectrum curve I am just wasting my time?

from my set up see above in the thread. Do you thing n8 is pushing it with my projector.

On another note do know of any velvet or felt tape etc that you use for boarders or do you think they dont make a big diff. as far as pop etc goes

Sorry for all this you got a house to worry about tell me to go away if you dont have the time. Im just stoked there is someone over here that has put in the efforts as wife thinks im excessive compulsive.

cheers Jase

jaseskiwi 03-13-11 03:34 AM

Re: screen paint for new zealand

forgot to say that resene advertise they use their highglow roof paint in aluminium for screens have you seen it? It is very bright I thought that would hotspot something crazy?


there is also one with lrv of about 70 and 83 for its N value* I guess the high N is because of the metallic reflection?) but again its a full metallic paint. It uses silver alluminium base


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