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Harpmaker 03-27-11 10:04 PM

Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

10-18-13 Addendum: The Valspar paints have changed (and some not for the better) so we are now suggesting that Valspar Signature be used instead of Valspar Ultra. The tint formula is the same. All mixing is the same.

http://images.lowes.com/product/conv...97595134lg.jpg

--------------------------------------------

The change in physical makeup of the metallic silver paint used to make the previous Cream&Sugar™ mix means that particular mix (or series of 3 mixes actually) can no longer be recommended unless the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver is still available to you.

Introducing Cream&Sugar™ Ultra! Like the Cream&Sugar™ mix before it, Cream&Sugar™ Ultra is a binary mix (only two paints are used). Both paints are usually easily obtained locally throughout the U.S.; development is continuing in the use of a paint available from Home Depot as well which I'm sure will be glad news to our northern neighbors in Canada since there are precious few Lowe's stores there.

The base paint is Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Latex Flat Enamel Base 1 with the following tint and amount - 115-0.67 for a quart of paint.

Addendum:The Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel paint has been renamed by Lowe's to Valspar Ultra Premium Super Flat Finish. The paint is the same, just a different name, so the existing tint formula will still work.

Note that the photo below is NOT the Base 1 paint, but rather the Ultra White base.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...w/P2060721.jpg


For those coming from looking at the original Cream&Sugar™ thread please note that the ratio of base paint to silver paint has changed for Cream&Sugar™ Ultra, it is now 50% base paint and 50% silver paint (a 1:1 ratio).


To make 32 fl. oz. of mix (before thinning for final application) buy the following items:
1 quart Valspar Ultra Premium Super Flat Finish Base 1 tinted 115-0.67 (available at Lowe's)
16 fl. oz. Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' acrylic paint (four 4 oz. tubes or two 8 oz. tubs). This paint is available at most arts and crafts stores such as Michael's and A.C. Moore. It is also available at great discount from many stores on the internet.

Now the tricky part. Since the mix is 1:1 that means only 16 oz. of the quart of Valspar paint is used, to which is mixed the 16 oz. of LBS (Liquitex BASICS 'Silver'). While you could just add 32 oz. of LBS to the quart of Valspar paint, LBS is a fairly expensive paint and it would make way more mix than most people would need. So yeah, the tricky part is measuring 16 fl. oz. out of a quart of paint. :D

Because the LBS is so thick the mix DOES NEED TO BE THINNED, even to roll. For those rolling I would recommend adding at least 25% distilled water; those spraying would have to dilute even more depending on their sprayer. Add the water and mix thoroughly, this mix is slow to accept the added water. Mixing thoroughly is VERY important!

For what I will assume would be the standard C&S™ Ultra mix of 16 oz. Valspar and 16 oz. LBS that means an additional 8 oz. of water should be added to thin for rolling. It would be a good idea to also use some of this water to wash out your containers of LBS to get all the paint out. If you are using the 8 oz. tubs of LBS simply pour the water into the tub, cover and shake. If using 4 oz. tubes of LBS I found it works best to inject the water into the almost empty tube with some kind of syringe, close the lid and shake WELL.

Cream&Sugar™ Ultra is a N9.2 screen mix which is brighter than the N9 of the previous Cream&Sugar™ mix. This means C&S™ Ultra will not perform quite as well in ambient light as C&S™, but it also means the mix will be even brighter than C&S™ in a home theater that has controlled lighting and dark walls.

Data and photos to follow.

Harpmaker 03-27-11 10:05 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

C&S™ Ultra

http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=6340

RGB 226 226 226
LAB 89.9 -0.11 -0.09
xyY 0.312 0.329 76.01

I've also got a panel that was done using Valspar Ultra Premium Flat as a base. Here's the chart for it:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=6342

RGB 223 222 222
LAB 88.6 0.17 0.22
xyY 0.313 0.329 73.29

Harpmaker 03-27-11 10:10 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Here are some photos of C&S Ultra compared to Sherwin-Williams 'Extra White' paints in satin finish. This composite screen consists of four 1'x4' panels. They are displayed on the wall where I painted them. These aren't "eye candy" shots, but are rather to help demonstrate how these screens actually compare to each other.

The projector used is a Viewsonic PJ503D which is a presentation PJ that has had some firmware tweeks done on it so they could call it a home theater PJ. It isn't. The brightness/contrast/color adjustments on this PJ are about like you would find on an inexpensive 20 year old CRT TV set.

Left to right, the panels in the photos are:
  • C&S™ Ultra made with Valspar Ultra Premium white tinted to produce a neutral C&S™ screen
  • C&S™ Ultra made with Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel ultra white tinted to produce a neutral C&S™ screen (this is the official C&S™ Ultra mix)
  • Sherwin-Williams ProClassic interior acrylic latex 'Extra White' B20 W 51 in satin finish
  • Sherwin-Williams Color to Go (their cheap sample paint) 'Extra White' A91 W 251 in satin finish

All panels were sprayed using an air compressor/HVLP gun combo.

Panels in room light (ceiling mounted fluorescent). You can see the C&S™ Ultra panels are slightly darker than the 'Extra White' panels.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310605.jpg

100% White field on-axis. To my eyes, the 2nd panel is brighter than the 3rd panel by a very small margin. The brightest panel is #4 (the cheap Color to Go sample paint $5 a quart).

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310599.jpg

100% White field ~70° (0° is on-axis). This is about the greatest angle that I would call viewable in a home theater, any greater angle creates too much angular distortion in the image. At this angle the C&S™ panels are darker than the white panels, but not by much. There is no hot spotting from any panel.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310603.jpg

Color bars on-axis.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310600.jpg

Color bars ~70°.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310604.jpg

I would say that of all the paints tested above the SW Color to Go 'Extra White' satin produces the brightest screen. Here are a few photos from the Digital Video Essentials DVD.

Earth. It's hard to tell the panels apart unless you really look close.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310598.jpg

Space Shuttle on pad. The thing to look at here is the grass at the bottom of the photo. The 2nd and 4th panels are the brightest.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310595.jpg

Ambient light flag. This photo was taken with about 500 watts of "cool white" fluorescent light bouncing around a small room with white walls and ceiling. It's not a watchable image by any stretch of the imagination, but it shows the ability of even a light gray screen (the C&S Ultra) to boost black levels and color saturation over a white screen. The projected image (100% white field) has a measured brightness of 27 fL, the room light at the screen was measured at 24 fL.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...a/P3310591.jpg

cdcstl 03-29-11 09:21 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Hey Harp. Can I assume that I can't mix the old & new silver together to the new base? I have some of the old silver left but not for a full batch.

Thanks.

Harpmaker 04-12-11 01:18 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Photos posted in post #3.

e.mann30 04-28-11 06:37 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

I have a local shop that carries auto air aluminum fine. Can i use 16oz AAA insted of the liquitex basics silver ? Will it still be neutral and will the AAA be a better silver agent for the C&S Ultra mix.

e.mann30 04-28-11 10:22 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Momma always told me that no question is a dumb question :) , so I would also like to know if C&S Ultra be used to make scorpion N? Sreen paint mix ?

Harpmaker 04-28-11 10:54 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

e.mann30 wrote: (Post 434223)
Momma always told me that no question is a dumb question :) , so I would also like to know if C&S Ultra be used to make scorpion N? Sreen paint mix ?

We are still testing that out, but early results say yes.

giboni 04-28-11 05:08 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Wow
The DIY investigations on this forum are amazing. Many posters are part time Scientists ! Would your formulation
be a good bet for a 2;35 to 1 screen in this size. 300 inch diagnol. 9feet 8inch by 276 iches. going to use vynl flooring & Behr Premium Plus white eggshell latex enamel as the primer. take pictures of the images on the primer.
Then later with your solution. How much paint will I need ? Thank you in advance for your time. Ought to go back to the photos which Testing disc are you using?
John:clap:

Harpmaker 04-28-11 09:14 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

giboni wrote: (Post 434269)
Would your formulation be a good bet for a 2;35 to 1 screen in this size. 300 inch diagnol. 9feet 8inch by 276 iches.

Yes, but it should only be used instead of a white eggshell finish paint if you need the slight help C&S™ Ultra will give you when ambient light is present (although it is NOT a mix designed for use in ambient light). I would think that a white eggshell paint would have a bit more gain than C&S™ Ultra, but this hasn't been confirmed yet via testing.

Quote:

going to use vynl flooring & Behr Premium Plus white eggshell latex enamel as the primer. take pictures of the images on the primer. Then later with your solution.
I understand the reasoning behind this choice, and it might work out OK for you, but you will be painting the REAR of the vinyl flooring instead of the front, and the rear is some kind of paper material (be sure the backing doesn't have any kind of embossing or rolled texture to aid in holding glue as that would make it unsuitable as a screen). I really would recommend priming the back of the flooring with a real primer to seal it so it will not absorb excessive amounts of the coats of paint to follow. Any inexpensive primer would work. You might actually benefit from using Kilz Premium latex primer; this is a very white primer that actually has a sheen to it (some have even said it exhibited mild hot spotting) which might give a very similar image as the eggshell paint.

Quote:

How much paint will I need ? Thank you in advance for your time. Ought to go back to the photos which Testing disc are you using?
Your screen will have 222 1/3 square feet of surface. I like to plan on 1 fluid ounce total (all coats of paint added together) of paint per square foot of screen just to be safe, but this is far from a hard and fast rule. Most gallons of paint say they cover 250 to 400 square feet, but keep in mind this is only a single coat; most of the time you will have to apply two coats of paint (primer or finish paint) to get an even appearance.

You're welcome. :T

I use the standard definition version of the Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD for the 100% White Field and Color Bar images as well as the space shuttle, planet Earth and flag images. My favorite DVD for taking "screenies" (screen photos) is The Fifth Element.

Centurion 05-12-11 09:12 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.

Centurion 05-12-11 10:54 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

Centurion wrote: (Post 436320)
New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.

Let me add that the projector I am looking at is the Panasonic PT-AE4000U (1600 Lumens)

Harpmaker 05-12-11 01:12 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

Centurion wrote: (Post 436320)
New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.

Let me add that the projector I am looking at is the Panasonic PT-AE4000U (1600 Lumens)

Hi Centurion, welcome to the forum! :wave:

Thank you for the compliments. DIY screens, and screens in general, are a hobby for us; but it's one we do take seriously.

To answer your question, yes the Elektra™ mixes can be made using C&S™ Ultra as a base instead of the old C&S™.

As to how dark a screen you need, we will need a bit more info to help with that.

1. What size screen are you making?
2. Are the walls and ceiling painted white or a very light color, or are they dark?
3. How far will the PJ be mounted from the screen?
4. What will the viewing distance be from the screen?

Centurion 05-16-11 10:35 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Thanks for getting back to me. Here is the additional information:

1) the screen will be approximately 110" Diagonal, 16:9 format
2)Ceilings are Black Walls are a dark brown color.
3) The projector will be mounted about 14.5' from the screen
4) the first viewing row is about 11' from the screen

Thanks again, I'm already excited!

Centurion 05-16-11 10:51 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,
I figured I might as well give a few more specifics about my room. All paint is flat, so no reflection. Floors are dark as well, and absolutely no ambient light (basement). The seating is in direct line with the screen, so there should be no concerns with the viewing angle. By the way the projector being mounted at 14.5' from the screen is about as far back as I can mount it, plus or minus maybe 6".
When I saw the thread of the Elektra™ screen, more specifically the Batman opening scene with the buildings, the blacks looked amazing! so deep, that is what I am going for.

Harpmaker 05-16-11 07:20 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Thanks for the additional info Centurion. If you want deep blacks in the projected image the best way to do that is to buy a PJ that already has them and then build a dedicated theater to keep the screen protected from light pollution (which it seems you have done :clap:).

I'm thinking that you really don't need much help getting good contrast and black levels if you go with the Panny AE4000 or an Epson 8700UB in a dedicated theater with dark surfaces. Either use a white paint for your screen, or if you want to have a little bit of "black level insurance" you could go with C&S™ Ultra. If your heart is set on something a bit darker, the Elektra™ mixes can be made with C&S™ Ultra, but I would use the Behr N6 sample rather than the Valspar N6 sample paint because the Valspar sample is only available in satin finish which might make C&S™ Ultra hot spot a bit.

kadijk 05-16-11 09:52 PM

Harp, a quick question. We have discussed this on the development thread already but I was wondering if you have gotten around to formulating the C&S Ultra with paint one could get at Home Depot. My situation is almost identical to Centurian's and so your comment about the valspar paint maybe hotspotting got me thinking. Or is that only in regards to the darker mix( Electra)?

Harpmaker 05-16-11 11:28 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

kadijk wrote: (Post 437121)
Harp, a quick question. We have discussed this on the development thread already but I was wondering if you have gotten around to formulating the C&S Ultra with paint one could get at Home Depot.

I'm quite certain C&S™ Ultra can be made with Behr #1850 paint (ultra white flat latex enamel) instead of the Valspar Ultra Premium white flat latex enamel, but the silver paint MUST be Liquitex BASICS Silver (at least at this time). Home Depot seems to be stopping selling metallic paints; first Behr stopped making their metallics and then HD stopped selling the Ralph Lauren metallics. I know it's an inconvenience ordering the Liquitex paint, but the only other choice is paying big bucks to get them from a local store that sells artist paints (A. C. Moore, Michael's etc.). If you can assemble the needed paints over time, you can get 40% to 50% off retail price by using weekly coupons at the above mentioned stores (they will accept each others sale coupons).

Quote:

My situation is almost identical to Centurian's and so your comment about the valspar paint maybe hotspotting got me thinking. Or is that only in regards to the darker mix( Electra)?
It's only when making a darker mix by adding the N6 paint. The way things stand C&S™ Ultra is made using the regular BASICS Silver paint since the BASICS MATT paints are not sold in the large craft/artist supply stores any more (I don't know why). All the BASICS paints are of a satin finish (some, like the Titanium White are even glossier) so C&S™ Ultra is already 50% satin and 50% flat white enamel so any additional satin paint may push the mix into hot spotting. Another contributing factor is that C&S™ Ultra only makes 32 oz. of paint before water is added while the older C&S™ mixes made 48 oz. The volume discrepancy is really less than that because the BASICS paint is VERY thick, but I hope you get my drift. That is why I'm only suggesting the Behr N6 paint (it's flat) be used to make Elektra™ with C&S™ Ultra as the base paint.

We will be introducing two new mixes later this year, the first is Cream&Sugar™ International and the other will be called Aurora™ International. These mixes will be made from 100% Liquitex BASICS or BASICS MATT paints. This is being done so that these mixes can be made in any country in the world. Aurora™ will basically be the same thing as Elektra™ only it will use a N5 paint as a shade-adjuster since that is the only neutral gray Liquitex sells.

kadijk 05-16-11 11:50 PM

Thanks. I have the liquitex basics already so it's the base I need to acquire with no lowes nearby. Your work and testing are MUCH appreciated.

Harpmaker 05-17-11 10:54 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

kadijk wrote: (Post 437153)
Thanks. I have the liquitex basics already so it's the base I need to acquire with no lowes nearby. Your work and testing are MUCH appreciated.

Thank you.

In all of our testing Valspar Ultra Premium enamel and Behr #1850 have performed in a very similar manner and one could be exchanged for the other. If you have to you could probably use the newer Behr #1750 (their ULTRA paint), but do that only if absolutely necessary. I have read that some have had problems with roller marks with #1850, but all that means is that they haven't thinned it enough with water before rolling (it doesn't take much).

kadijk 05-18-11 09:56 AM

I guess the only problem with using the Behr product is knowing the tint formula that HD would use to match the Lowes coloring.

Harpmaker 05-18-11 11:45 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

kadijk wrote: (Post 437404)
I guess the only problem with using the Behr product is knowing the tint formula that HD would use to match the Lowes coloring.

With any luck I'll be checking this out today. :T

Centurion 05-19-11 09:10 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,
I really appreciate your insight and knowledge on this. I think i will go the route of using C&S with maybe a pinch (1 - 1.5oz) of N6 ? Interesting recommendation on the PJ as I was/am strongly considering the Epson 8700UB or 9700UB as well. Thanks again.

Harpmaker 05-19-11 12:12 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

Centurion wrote: (Post 437628)
Harp,
I really appreciate your insight and knowledge on this. I think i will go the route of using C&S with maybe a pinch (1 - 1.5oz) of N6 ? Interesting recommendation on the PJ as I was/am strongly considering the Epson 8700UB or 9700UB as well. Thanks again.

Adding that small an amount of N6 paint to C&S™ Ultra would only darken the mix by the slightest amount, but it wouldn't hurt anything either.

I am far from an expert on projectors, for that info check out our PJ forum here at HTS. All of the PJ's you are contemplating are way above my pay-grade - all I know about them is what I read; but if you are serious about good image contrast and black levels get a PJ that has them "out of the box" and don't try to compensate for their lack with a screen.

Centurion 05-19-11 01:46 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Excellent recommendation. So now I have to ask what projector are you running?

Harpmaker 05-19-11 05:45 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

Centurion wrote: (Post 437717)
Excellent recommendation. So now I have to ask what projector are you running?

I'm half embarrassed to tell you. :blush: Like a lot of people I made the mistake of getting a cheap PJ that was on sale (I think I paid something like $300, but it may have been $400) without really knowing anything about projectors. I got a Viewsonic PJ503D (which I don't recommend to anyone for any purpose). It's an 800x600 PJ, but that doesn't really bother me since I'm still using standard DVD's; but it's a DLP PJ that only has something like 2 or 3 segments on the color-wheel which causes me a HUGE problem with Rainbow Effect. It is especially bad when watching a Black&White movie since the colors you see out of the corner of your eyes are easily seen against the B&W image on the screen. The RBE is so bad with this PJ I even was able to take a photo of it! The area of the image where I am moving my finger up and down in is white (meaning it's getting equal amounts of red, green and blue light) the area of the image hitting my hand is blue.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4329/pict1330om0.jpg

abby3347 06-05-11 07:56 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,

I am most impressed with your knowledge and experience with high performing DIY screens for a reasonable price.

Presently, I am in the final stages of finishing a new summer home with a theater room that will have high ambient light during the daytime, so we plan to use the PJ only at night and a smaller flat screen display positioned below during the daylight hours. There are some parameters of the room layout and decor that I will not be able to change, so I am seeking advice to help make sure I achieve the best outcome in terms of the screen performance. The Projector is a Panasonic PT-AE4000U that will need to be ceiling mounted at about 11' (as close as possible) from the 107" diagonal screen painted on smooth drywall, the back of the fire place. Ceiling is light beige and walls are medium beige in eggshell latex. I can control lighting to a very low level of light. There can be a small amount of indirect moonlight coming from the great room behind the fireplace wall reflecting off walls in the theater room. This indirect light is coming from behind and to the sides of the screen which remains very dark. I believe the light from the screen image reflecting off the theater room walls and ceiling will be a bigger factor.

Do you think the C&S Ultra will be a good selection for this PJ and the environment described above?

I tried my old Sharp XV- Z90U in this room on the primed wall and it was plenty bright, a little reflection off the ceiling that I may need to work on. I made a 92" dia. portable screen for this projector with a Behr formula a few years ago that we still enjoy and I am looking forward to high performance with the new screen and PJ.

Thanks,

Dave

Harpmaker 06-05-11 10:25 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Hi Dave, welcome to HTS! :wave:

Thanks for the kind words, but it really is a group effort here; especially with Wbasset and Mech. Others aren't shy to add their words of knowledge either. :T

The Panny AE4000U is a very nice PJ, but it has such a wide choice of settings it can be hard to determine the actual brightness people are getting out of their units. The ProjectorCentral calculator (which we use a lot here) shows this PJ hitting the screen with 21 fL of illumination, but the ProjectorReviews measured lumen levels tell another story and in your HT (and using econo mode to extend lamp life) you would be shooting about 10.5 fL.

If you can control ambient light to only reflected moonlight from another room I would think that C&S™ Ultra would work a treat for you.

While we haven't gotten around to testing the exact amounts of N6 neutral gray paint to add to C&S™ Ultra to make darker mixes, the amounts listed in the Elektra™ thread will be very close. If you determine your C&S™ Ultra screen is too light in color you could simply add some N6 paint to any remaining mix to darken it slightly and just paint over the C&S™ Ultra without repriming the screen.

If you were shooting a 107" screen with your Z90U you would have been hitting the screen with about 8 fL.

abby3347 06-06-11 01:39 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,

Thanks for the very quick response! Are you aware of any disadvantage of mounting the PJ at the shortest throw distance for a given screen width? I need to stay in front of a ceiling fan.

Regards,

Dave

Harpmaker 06-06-11 09:02 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

abby3347 wrote: (Post 440815)
Harp,

Thanks for the very quick response! Are you aware of any disadvantage of mounting the PJ at the shortest throw distance for a given screen width? I need to stay in front of a ceiling fan.

Regards,

Dave

The only "disadvantage" of using a PJ (or even a camera) with it's zoom lens set close to the end of it's range (either tele or wide) would be some minimal image distortion around the edges of the image. I want to quickly add that such distortion may not even be detectable with the human eye without a special test image to show it (fine cross hatch patterns and small circles). When watching normal movie/TV images I don't think you will have any problems using the widest zoom setting to get the maximum screen size. It might be a good idea to ask this question in the Projector forum here.

All our screen mixes are designed to have large angles of view so you shouldn't be losing image quality or brightness with a short throw PJ mounting. This isn't the case with high gain screens where you might actually lose some image brightness, and even get some color-shifting, with a short throw due to the relatively high angles of incidence at which the PJ beam strikes. Here I'm thinking about commercial retroreflective screens or so-called high gain DIY screen mixes available elsewhere that use gloss to increase gain. With a retroreflective screen the farther the viewer is away from being on-axis (both vertically and horizontally) with the PJ the less bright the screen will be and the greater the chance of the image being off-color because of light refraction. The glossier DIY mixes will lose brightness also by reflecting a larger portion of light onto the floor and not the viewers eyes (unless you like to lay of the floor during viewing ;)). This is all simple optics and physics of light refraction and reflection.

Philnick 06-09-11 09:18 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Dave,

As a user of the original C&S and the Panasonic PT-AE2000U, I can tell you a few things:

1) You're putting together a dynamite combination for image quality.

Try the projector's "Color 1" setting - it's reputed to be the one that matches Hollywood standards. I found, when I calibrated with DVE, that I only needed to give it a tiny red push - and I understand that the newer Pannys may not even need that. With the projector at the back of the room, about 13 feet from the screen, zoomed to cover an area about 9 1/2' by a little over 5' high, I run it in Economy and at High Altitude to extend bulb life without noticing any dimming or fan noise - and I'm only sitting a few feet in front of the projector.

2) You should avoid using an upside-down mount for the projector.

If you read through the PT-AE2000U thread over at AV Science forums, there's a design problem in the PT-AE line of projectors. The three color filters are held in rectangular frames that are metal on their sides and bottom but their tops are just strips of adhesive tape!

Mount the machine upside down and run it for a while and the heat softens the glue of the tape, and then gravity pulls a filter down and out of position.

The do-it-yourselfers over there have posted instructions for taking the projector apart and fixing it when this happens, but the best solution is prevention. Mount the projector right-side up!

I use a six foot tall wire frame shelf similar to Metro shelving that I got from a local hardware store. You can find a link to find something like it at Amazon on the site I just launched on how to set up a home theater - http://PRO-Home-Theaters.com - on the page called "To House and Connect" (I link to this forum there for folks who want to paint their own screens.)

Oh, and the projector pulls a lot of air in through it's back panel and blows warm air out the front, so don't put the shelves too closely spaced, since the PJ killed one AVR of mine that was mounted just an inch below the PJ by stealing the cool air it needed for its own ventilation.

Guess where the best place would be to put a tall shelf unit (which can also hold the rest of the electronics)? The back of the room. The only long cables you'll need this way will be the speaker wires. Since the screen is reflective, you can bounce your remotes off the screen to control the equipment at the back of the room.

Phil

grizzct 06-16-11 04:35 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

I went to buy the valspar flat enamel in base 1 to use with the 115 .67 tint c
ode and the resulting paint looked blue grey. When I came back on here to check this out I saw your post with the screen pics listed the base as ultrawhite. Could you tell me if the correct base for the valspar flat enamel is base1 or ultrawhite? Thanks.

Harpmaker 06-16-11 10:10 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

grizzct wrote: (Post 442572)
I went to buy the valspar flat enamel in base 1 to use with the 115 .67 tint c
ode and the resulting paint looked blue grey. When I came back on here to check this out I saw your post with the screen pics listed the base as ultrawhite. Could you tell me if the correct base for the valspar flat enamel is base1 or ultrawhite? Thanks.

If your paint is blue-gray the store mixed it wrong. That's kind of hard to do, but it is far from impossible. The tinted paint should appear a very light pink since tint 115 is Magenta, but so little tint is used it barely colors the white paint.

All of the Valspar numbered bases (1, 2 and 4) are called ultra white, but they vary in how much paint is in the can (the more tint that is to be added to make a color the less actual white paint is in the can) and how much titanium dioxide (the white pigment) is in the base to start with.

grizzct 06-16-11 10:19 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Thanks for the info. The store only had base 4 and a quart can labeled flat enamel ultrawhite with no base number on it. In the gallon size they had a can labeled flat enamel base 1, so they used the same tint number and just quadrupled the amount. When they opened the base 1 can to tint it the color was a grey, not white. It looked slightly blue, and the magenta tint barely changed the color. I was asking about the ultrawhite vs the base 1 because they only had the base 4 and the can labeled ultrawhitw with no base number in the quart size. Do you have any pics of what the valspar paint should look like after its tinted?

Harpmaker 06-17-11 12:44 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

grizzct wrote: (Post 442636)
Thanks for the info. The store only had base 4 and a quart can labeled flat enamel ultrawhite with no base number on it. In the gallon size they had a can labeled flat enamel base 1, so they used the same tint number and just quadrupled the amount. When they opened the base 1 can to tint it the color was a grey, not white. It looked slightly blue, and the magenta tint barely changed the color. I was asking about the ultrawhite vs the base 1 because they only had the base 4 and the can labeled ultrawhitw with no base number in the quart size. Do you have any pics of what the valspar paint should look like after its tinted?

Quadrupling the tint formula to make a gallon should work just fine, I think they just made a mistake and used the wrong color tint; however, if the gallon of base 1 looked gray before tinting I suspect something was wrong with that can of paint from the beginning.

The can of paint without a base number was a full can of Valspar Ultra White with the max. amount of titanium dioxide in it. In a pinch you could probably use that base (no number) and tint it the same (115 - 0.67) instead of using base 1, but I highly recommend using base 1. Base 4 has quite a bit less paint in the can since it it designed to make dark colors all the way down to black so lots of room is provided for adding tint, and it has less TiO2, so it won't work. In theory the store computer can manipulate the tint data to compensate between bases, but the base color for C&S™ Ultra is so light that won't work.

Here is the color of the C&S™ Ultra base. Keep in mind that the color you actually see is determined by how well your computer monitor is calibrated. It is also hard to directly compare an emissive color swatch (the one below) to a paint sample which is a reflected color, but it should give you an idea of what to look for.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...abasecolor.png

grizzct 06-17-11 10:31 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Thanks for the help harpmaker. I went back to Lowes and had them open another can of base 1 and it was white this time. They agreed to exchange it for the one I bought with the wrong colored base. Also, just wanted to say thanks for all the work you guys do on these DIY paints. I'm a happy two time black widow user and I'm looking forward to experimenting with C&S Ultra.

Harpmaker 06-18-11 01:50 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Glad to be of assistance grizzct, and thanks also for the kind words. We don't make a penny off any of these mixes in any way, shape or form and I admit it is nice to hear that our efforts are appreciated by those that try them. Good luck with your experimenting with C&S™ Ultra. :T

abby3347 06-21-11 12:39 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp, Phil;

I have been mulling over my HT project since we last conversed on 6-5-2011. After further research and consideration, I have decided that I need to change my screen location from the back of my fire place with an 8' width limitation, to another wall in my multipurpose room due to seating layout issues, projector positioning considerations and screen size limitations. I am now looking at a CIH 122" diagonal cinema scope screen (9.4'wide)for the largest majority of anticipated use which will still give me an 89" x 48 " 16:9 screen.

Since my project is 200 miles from my primary home and I am getting ready for carpet installation, I have decided it will be worth a trip there to confirm the the best layout, make any needed wiring modifications, establish projector location and also conduct a test of the rooms lighting conditions to help determine the best screen option.

I am interested in your take on the expected performance comparison between the C&S Ultra and the Wilson Art laminate in terms of the important metrics including viewing cone and durability (grandchildren). I can work with the greys if needed for the lighting conditions in the room. My room is a little over 20' wide and 19' deep with front row seating at 10' (four recliners) and second row (four recliners on a riser) at 14'. There will be other secondary seating outboard of these seats (+ kids on the floor). On the screen wall, the left side wall is about 5' away from the screen and there is essentially no right side wall. The ceiling is vaulted and slopes up and away at 3/12 pitch from the 7' high screen wall (screen will be about 4" from ceiling to 2'8" off the floor). Ceiling is light tan, walls are medium tan, carpet is medium biege. One idea for expected reflected light from the ceiling would be to either paint the ceiling darker in a semi circle in front of the screen or come out about 3-4' feet from the screen and put a black ceiling curtain hanging down from the sloped ceiling, 12' wide or so, with the bottom edge just above the screen (paint the area behind this curtain dark), when viewed from the back row of seats on the riser.

Phil, I searched a little and could not find the info on the design problem with AE line of projectors for mounting upside down. Is there confirmation that this problem is still present in the 4000? Trying to decide between 1. table mounting the projector between back row seats with lens at a 13' throw, 2. mounting the projector on the entertainment center base cabinet counter top (back wall), right side up at about 3' off the floor, 17.5' throw, or 3. mounting the projector upside down on the entertainment center upper cabinet at 6' 8"' high, 17. 5 ' throw.

The issue with option #2 is there is a walking aisle between the back row of seating and the entertainment center that leads to a bathroom and three bedrooms. I understand that option 3 might be better for gaming and my seating would not need to be split, however, I still plan to place a removable flat screen display on my center stage speaker floor cabinet in front of the PJ screen for daytime viewing and gaming (this room is very bright during the day because of adjacent great room and large net window area) so option 1 is still viable and may be preferable to 3, especially if I could run the projector in economy mode to extend lamp life.

I am zeroing in on my redesign of the room and looking for suggestions, especially on paint versus laminate. I am a home builder and cabinet maker, so none of this is particularly difficult. With either paint or laminate, I would likely use 1/2' or 5/8" MDF, 5' x 10" sheet, cut oversize to accommodate the black velvet screen frame. I would back the MDF with a secondary frame 3/4" by 3 1/2", for mounting strength and to help keep the screen flat.

Is the C&S Ultra significantly more impressive in terms of overall performance? Will it have a wider viewing cone? The durability of laminate is appealing. My current home made portable screen with a cover, has a few marks,:ponder: dings and hand prints. We have cleaned some of the marks to some degree.

I just want to avoid having to do something twice if possible.

Thanks much.

Dave

Harpmaker 06-22-11 05:45 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

abby3347 wrote: (Post 443408)
I am interested in your take on the expected performance comparison between the C&S Ultra and the Wilson Art laminate in terms of the important metrics including viewing cone and durability (grandchildren). I can work with the greys if needed for the lighting conditions in the room. My room is a little over 20' wide and 19' deep with front row seating at 10' (four recliners) and second row (four recliners on a riser) at 14'. There will be other secondary seating outboard of these seats (+ kids on the floor).

DW laminate (gain of about 1.3 IIRC) will provide a slightly brighter image than a C&S™ Ultra screen (gain about 1.0), but it will also have a narrower viewing angle than C&S™ Ultra. Using C&S™ Ultra will give you a wider viewing angle (which it sounds like you would want) and a bit of help dealing with small amounts of ambient light since it is technically really a very light gray.

While we have not done any destructive testing of screens (although that would be an interesting project) I would expect C&S™ Ultra to be fairly tough since it is a combo of flat enamel and artist acrylic paints. Laminate is pretty tough as well, but if it is ever damaged it's almost impossible to repair for the average DIY'er. The main problem, as I understand it, with laminate is that it can scratch during cleaning affecting the level of gloss from one area of the screen to the next, and that it is quite brittle. Mech and Wbassett have both had laminate screens so perhaps they might have something to add here, but it might be a while before you hear from them since Mech is on vacation and Wbassett is just plain busy.

Quote:

On the screen wall, the left side wall is about 5' away from the screen and there is essentially no right side wall. The ceiling is vaulted and slopes up and away at 3/12 pitch from the 7' high screen wall (screen will be about 4" from ceiling to 2'8" off the floor). Ceiling is light tan, walls are medium tan, carpet is medium biege. One idea for expected reflected light from the ceiling would be to either paint the ceiling darker in a semi circle in front of the screen or come out about 3-4' feet from the screen and put a black ceiling curtain hanging down from the sloped ceiling, 12' wide or so, with the bottom edge just above the screen (paint the area behind this curtain dark), when viewed from the back row of seats on the riser.
Yeah, only having 4" between the top of the screen and the light colored ceiling is going to be a problem. Of the two solutions you are considering I think the black curtain would work best.


Quote:

Phil, I searched a little and could not find the info on the design problem with AE line of projectors for mounting upside down. Is there confirmation that this problem is still present in the 4000? Trying to decide between 1. table mounting the projector between back row seats with lens at a 13' throw, 2. mounting the projector on the entertainment center base cabinet counter top (back wall), right side up at about 3' off the floor, 17.5' throw, or 3. mounting the projector upside down on the entertainment center upper cabinet at 6' 8"' high, 17. 5 ' throw.
I would recommend keeping the PJ as close to the screen as possible to get as bright an image as possible.

Quote:

I am zeroing in on my redesign of the room and looking for suggestions, especially on paint versus laminate. I am a home builder and cabinet maker, so none of this is particularly difficult. With either paint or laminate, I would likely use 1/2' or 5/8" MDF, 5' x 10" sheet, cut oversize to accommodate the black velvet screen frame. I would back the MDF with a secondary frame 3/4" by 3 1/2", for mounting strength and to help keep the screen flat.
I would also recommend priming the rear surface and edges of the MDF to help seal it against moisture transfer and warping.

Quote:

Is the C&S Ultra significantly more impressive in terms of overall performance? Will it have a wider viewing cone? The durability of laminate is appealing.
Thanks much.
Screen performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it also depends on what screen aspect we are talking about. We can tell you how much light a screen will reflect to your eyes, what gain it has (if we've measured it), and give you more than a wild guess at how much ambient light it will absorb; but ultimately it comes down to viewer preference. DW makes a dandy screen, but it is a white screen and any ambient light will hurt image contrast and color depth. C&S™ Ultra is a paint mix and thus it can be darkened if necessary by adding some N6 or N5 paint so it can be customized to your needs.

abby3347 06-22-11 10:25 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,

Thank you very much for the great advice.

Dave

maxmercy 06-23-11 07:36 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote: (Post 443608)
Screen performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it also depends on what screen aspect we are talking about. We can tell you how much light a screen will reflect to your eyes, what gain it has (if we've measured it), and give you more than a wild guess at how much ambient light it will absorb; but ultimately it comes down to viewer preference. DW makes a dandy screen, but it is a white screen and any ambient light will hurt image contrast and color depth. C&S™ Ultra is a paint mix and thus it can be darkened if necessary by adding some N6 or N5 paint so it can be customized to your needs.

Harp,

Are there formulas for how much N5 or N6 to add to get other N shades with C&S Ultra?

Also, is the silver in C&S Ultra finer than the AAA Fine?

Thanks,

JSS

Harpmaker 06-23-11 09:31 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

maxmercy wrote: (Post 443820)
Harp,

Are there formulas for how much N5 or N6 to add to get other N shades with C&S Ultra?

For adding N6 gray paint to darken C&S™ Ultra you could use the amounts given in the Elektra™ thread. The N6 gray was needed for making Elektra™ because the old Craft Smart metallic Silver had relatively large reflective flakes in it and as the mix got darker they needed to be diluted. This is not the case with the Liquitex BASICS Silver and I will be working on changing the "shade adjuster" paint from N6 to N5 to make the mix comparable to a new line of mixes coming that can be made in just about any country in the world. Liquitex has a N5 paint in the BASICS line. ;)

Quote:

Also, is the silver in C&S Ultra finer than the AAA Fine?
While I haven't compared them under a microscope yet, I believe the answer is yes. The mica flakes in Liq. BASICS Silver are way less effective at reflecting light than the metallic aluminum flakes in AAA-F, and I do believe the AAA-F flakes are a bit larger as well, but not near as large as the aluminum coated polymer flakes in the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver. This is why more LBS must be used to make C&S™ Ultra (a 50/50 mix of base and silver).

Quote:

Thanks,

JSS
Glad to be of assistance!

maxmercy 06-24-11 08:15 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Harp,

Thanks, keep us updated!!! Once you guys get a reliable way to do C&S Ultra down to N7.5 or so, I may change my screen to it.....right now I am plain N7 OTS (Glidden Veil).

The contributions to DIYers in this section of the forum are quite underrated, you guys have done very impressive work!

JSS

bisch 01-04-12 12:51 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

7 Attachment(s)
Thank you Harpmaster for taking the time to post such mixes as C&S Ultra.

I've had an Optima hd65 and a greywolf screen that came with it for several years. I never liked the narrow viewing cone that came with the greywolf II retro-reflective high gain screen and always wanted to try a diy painted screen when the opportunity presented itself. I moved recently to a new house and decided from my research and the fact that I live in Canada to try your latest C&S Ultra mix.
I wanted to make it a bit darker and followed the Elektra N6 tint idea.

So far I have done one coat today, and wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I've bought:
-16 oz of Liquitex Basic Silver
-16 oz of Bahr PP100 (Ultra Pure White Flat Premium Plus, the HD rep said it has replaced 1850?) tinted to ppg bermuda biege
-8 oz of Bahr ul204 tinted to N6

I've split all the ingredients above in half and done the first coat.
Things that concern me are the colour was a bit more biege/red push than grey. the behr pp100 had this colour fairly strongly with the bermuda beige tint. I worry that the pp100 tinted to bermuda biege wasn't the right thing to do?
I know the Valspar or vupe is to be tinted bb 427-w, so I assumed the behr upw was to be tinted to bermuda biege as well.
Other concerns were that the formula hd had to tint to bb from pp100 differed from the old 1850 to bb tint listed on the forums.

I'll post some pics of the paints/formulas used for the mix and some of the 1st coat.
Please let me know if it looks like i'm on the right track, or if I should get some vupe and tint it at Lowes. My wife is taking a trip to the USA tomorrow and they have a Lowe's on their way.

I was shooting to get an N8.4-N8.7 with my mix.
I used 8 fl oz of pp100 tinted + 8 fl of of liquitex basics silver + 4oz of distilled water + 1.67 (50ml) of ul204 N6


I've attached some pics and referenced behr silver screen, I believe is N8.3 as a reference.
The first photo was shot with auto white balance, the rest were with flash. All painted substrates on the left are my first coat thus far.
Attachment 34299

Attachment 34300

Attachment 34301

Attachment 34302

Attachment 34303

Attachment 34304

Attachment 34305

Any Help or encouragement would be appreciated

Thank you

Harpmaker 01-04-12 11:03 AM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

bisch wrote: (Post 485657)
Thank you Harpmaster for taking the time to post such mixes as C&S Ultra.

No problem. We try to create screen mixes and offer advice so that people who want to make their own screens don't lose a thing compared to commercial screens.

Quote:

I've had an Optima hd65 and a greywolf screen that came with it for several years. I never liked the narrow viewing cone that came with the greywolf II retro-reflective high gain screen and always wanted to try a diy painted screen when the opportunity presented itself. I moved recently to a new house and decided from my research and the fact that I live in Canada to try your latest C&S Ultra mix.
I wanted to make it a bit darker and followed the Elektra N6 tint idea.
Darkening C&S™ Ultra with N6 gray paint to get a darker screen will work fine.

Quote:

So far I have done one coat today, and wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I've bought:
-16 oz of Liquitex Basic Silver
-16 oz of Bahr PP100 (Ultra Pure White Flat Premium Plus, the HD rep said it has replaced 1850?) tinted to ppg bermuda biege ----- NO
-8 oz of Bahr ul204 tinted to N6

I've split all the ingredients above in half and done the first coat.
Things that concern me are the colour was a bit more biege/red push than grey. the behr pp100 had this colour fairly strongly with the bermuda beige tint. I worry that the pp100 tinted to bermuda biege wasn't the right thing to do?
I know the Valspar or vupe is to be tinted bb 427-w, so I assumed the behr upw was to be tinted to bermuda biege as well.
Other concerns were that the formula hd had to tint to bb from pp100 differed from the old 1850 to bb tint listed on the forums.
You are using the WRONG base for making C&S™ Ultra. The Bermuda Beige base is for making our Black Widow™ mix and is causing your C&S™ Ultra attempt to be way to red-yellow. If you can't get the right base for C&S™ Ultra it still makes a near-neutral mix (more neutral than many commercial screens) if you just use untinted white paint as the base.

I'll have to double check this info to be 100% sure, but I believe the C&S™ Ultra base tint formula to use with Behr paint is V - 5/384 oz., although from your photo of the Behr jar it seems that they have changed the names of their tints. The base color you want for making C&S™ Ultra using Behr paint is 5/384 oz. of Magenta tint added to a QUART of #1850 (or equivalent). This is such a small about of tint that they can't accurately make it in the 8 oz. sample jar.

Quote:

I'll post some pics of the paints/formulas used for the mix and some of the 1st coat.
Please let me know if it looks like i'm on the right track, or if I should get some vupe and tint it at Lowes. My wife is taking a trip to the USA tomorrow and they have a Lowe's on their way.
You can try getting the base made in the Behr paint, but to be absolutely sure it might be a good idea to get the paint at Lowe's.

Quote:

I was shooting to get an N8.4-N8.7 with my mix.
I used 8 fl oz of pp100 tinted + 8 fl of of liquitex basics silver + 4oz of distilled water + 1.67 (50ml) of ul204 N6

I've attached some pics and referenced behr silver screen, I believe is N8.3 as a reference.
Behr 'Silver Screen' is a N8 neutral gray.

Quote:

Any Help or encouragement would be appreciated

Thank you
I think you're doing great, but you need to get the correct color base to get rid of that red push. :T

bisch 01-04-12 01:35 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Wow, thank you for the reply.
I had a feeling that it was not right and the red push was my bad :)
Initially, I thought the red will mix away with the silver, but after a while I knew it had to be wrong.

So an 8 oz sample is just too small to put the 5/384 magenta reliably and a quart would be the minimum you'd recommend? I think i can get the 5/384 in the behr mixed to the pp100 UPW, with their machine, I'll give it a shot as the wife is already back from the US today so Lowes is out for this week as an option.

I think going with worse case an 8 oz behr sample will go much better than my current bad base and a quart is likely perfect.


Any idea what N tint would be best to handle some ambient light?
The HD65 has about 1200 lumens on bright mode and 600 in best calibrated mode, so assuming 600 lumens and my screen size is aprox 107" or 35 sq ft, would bring a 17 FL. if I ramp to bright or 1000 lumens i'd have 28 FL.
Would you recommend a tint of N8 or 8.5 and is there any formula I can use to get there. I was just ballparking the Elektra tints from the original C&S thread, but they were based on the 48oz c&s mix, not the 40 oz c&s mix (assuming water added counts).

Thank you again!

Harpmaker 01-04-12 02:24 PM

Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra
 

Quote:

bisch wrote: (Post 485792)
Wow, thank you for the reply.
I had a feeling that it was not right and the red push was my bad :)
Initially, I thought the red will mix away with the silver, but after a while I knew it had to be wrong.

So an 8 oz sample is just too small to put the 5/384 magenta reliably and a quart would be the minimum you'd recommend? I think i can get the 5/384 in the behr mixed to the pp100 UPW, with their machine, I'll give it a shot as the wife is already back from the US today so Lowes is out for this week as an option.

I think going with worse case an 8 oz behr sample will go much better than my current bad base and a quart is likely perfect.

If you want to use an 8 oz. sample to make C&S™ Ultra you could have your Home Depot store add 1/384 oz. of Magenta tint to a jar of the #1850 equivalent paint. My guess is that they would look at you funny, but it would be better than having no Magenta tint at all. That sample jar would equate to a quart with 4/384 oz. of tint in it.

Quote:

Any idea what N tint would be best to handle some ambient light?
The HD65 has about 1200 lumens on bright mode and 600 in best calibrated mode, so assuming 600 lumens and my screen size is aprox 107" or 35 sq ft, would bring a 17 FL. if I ramp to bright or 1000 lumens i'd have 28 FL.
Would you recommend a tint of N8 or 8.5 and is there any formula I can use to get there. I was just ballparking the Elektra tints from the original C&S thread, but they were based on the 48oz c&s mix, not the 40 oz c&s mix (assuming water added counts).

Thank you again!
For your HT I personally would go with a N8, but you might like a brighter image; if that's the case then go with the N8.5.

There is currently no real formula for determining the N value that a screen should be, but I guess one could be designed. The problem is that to really get that technical about it you should actually measure the amount of ambient light during viewing and most people don't want to go that far.

Basically, the brighter your PJ the darker gray can be used. If you have enough lumens to counteract the light absorption of the gray screen to get around 16 fL of image brightness you are good to go. Some folks (like Mech and I) find 12 fL to be plenty bright, but this is very subjective.

I haven't determined the exact proportions of N6 gray paint to add to C&S™ Ultra to get exact N8.5 and N8 levels, but the idea that adding a neutral color paint to a neutral color paint = a neutral color paint means that you could simply experiment mixing N6 and C&S™ Ultra until you get to a gray shade you like.

Since the Liquitex BASICS Silver paint that is used in making C&S™ Ultra isn't as sparkly as the discontinued silver paint used in the original C&S™ mixes it may be possible to simply use a darker base paint rather than adding the N6 to the mix. The original idea behind the N6 addition was to darken the mix AND to dilute it to prevent visible sparkles which tended to show up as the mix darkened. I don't think that will be a problem when using the BASICS Silver. What all this means is that I have more mixing and testing to do! :nerd:


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