"There is no replacement for displacement" or is there? - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 26 Old 11-12-09, 01:25 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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I've yet to see a horn subwoofer design that offers a better balance of performance than a good LLT dollar for dollar.
I had this assumption also until I read "mynym's" comparison of a 15" Tuba HT compared to a 18" LLT. He states the Tuba wins hands down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1194093




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post #12 of 26 Old 11-12-09, 01:43 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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I had this assumption also until I read "mynym's" comparison of a 15" Tuba HT compared to a 18" LLT. He states the Tuba wins hands down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1194093
Above 20 Hz that is. Somewhere near the end he states that the LLTs hit harder for the below 20Hz stuff even though the two measure about the same in that range. He does have a lot of LLT woofage in his theater though...

The THT would be tempting to play with if I were not at the top of a 3 floor walkup building.
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post #13 of 26 Old 11-12-09, 01:54 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

From what I gather from his comparison the overall HT experience was better with the Tuba. Which would make sense since there is more information above 20 hz than there is below.




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post #14 of 26 Old 11-12-09, 07:01 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

I just looked over that thread and a few things stand out to me.

1) This guy was apparently lacking output from the LLT to begin with. I can't say that is normal - most don't approach the limits of a high excursion 18" LLT....about 115db in room down to the low teens.

2) If he was lacking output to begin with and getting compression, then a sub that has more headroom in the 25hz+ department will sound better. That seems to be what happened.

3) There is simply no way the horn digs anywhere near as deep as the LLT, not by a longshot, not even close. His in room measurement that goes down to 2hz is not legit, he must have improper mic calibration settings. That horn subwoofer enclosure is a mere fraction of the size it would need to be to dig as deep as his LLT.


I maintain my point that a LLT offers better balanced performance for the dollar than a horn sub.


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post #15 of 26 Old 11-13-09, 05:48 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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SteveCallas wrote: View Post
I just looked over that thread and a few things stand out to me.

1) This guy was apparently lacking output from the LLT to begin with. I can't say that is normal - most don't approach the limits of a high excursion 18" LLT....about 115db in room down to the low teens.

2) If he was lacking output to begin with and getting compression, then a sub that has more headroom in the 25hz+ department will sound better. That seems to be what happened.

3) There is simply no way the horn digs anywhere near as deep as the LLT, not by a longshot, not even close. His in room measurement that goes down to 2hz is not legit, he must have improper mic calibration settings. That horn subwoofer enclosure is a mere fraction of the size it would need to be to dig as deep as his LLT.


I maintain my point that a LLT offers better balanced performance for the dollar than a horn sub.
I wasn't really lacking output in the LLT. I had no problems getting 114db at the tuning freq (14hz). What I wasn't getting with the LLT was great chest pounding midbass. The THT not only digs lower in the same room in an unideal location none the less, it does it with less power and ALOT more authority. And because the driver doesn't have to work as hard the distortion is inherently lower. The sound from the horn is soooo much more smooth and natural sounding. If you have ever heard a good quality horn you know exactly what I am talking about.

I'd be interested in hearing from other LLT owners. Are they capable of moving the fabric on the back of their sofa's with a 20hz signwave from 15 feet away, this with only 29 watts? Personally, my LLT was never capable of that, not even slightly with 1000 watts.

There is nothing wrong my mic or the calibration, I've done many tests in different settings (home and car) with many arrays of different subwoofers. Keep in mind that that my media room has a concrete floor and half of the wall is cinderblock. It also has doubled up studs with 10" of insulation. Horn's also more efficiently take advantage of room gain and boundary loading; Loading it into the corner effectively extends the horn flare.

My unequalized measurements confirm what my ears and body felt with the THT.



121db @ 22hz with only 10.8 volts or 29 watts! and Couch Moving:


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post #16 of 26 Old 11-13-09, 06:45 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

What mic and calibration file are you using? A horn subwoofer would have to be larger than even a large LLT to achieve similar low end linearity, let alone linearity down into the single digits. That response simply isn't possible unless you are using heavy EQ, which I don't believe you are.

Try reducing your spl and frequency scale, it may be hiding a lot of the story. Try a scale of 65db - 115db and 10-100hz.


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post #17 of 26 Old 11-13-09, 07:00 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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What mic and calibration file are you using? A horn subwoofer would have to be larger than even a large LLT to achieve similar low end linearity, let alone linearity down into the single digits. That response simply isn't possible unless you are using heavy EQ, which I don't believe you are.

Try reducing your spl and frequency scale, it may be hiding a lot of the story. Try a scale of 65db - 115db and 10-100hz.
Radio Shack Model 33-2055 Digital RS Meter with these correction values
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post #18 of 26 Old 11-13-09, 07:15 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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Above 20 Hz that is. Somewhere near the end he states that the LLTs hit harder for the below 20Hz stuff even though the two measure about the same in that range. He does have a lot of LLT woofage in his theater though...

The THT would be tempting to play with if I were not at the top of a 3 floor walkup building.
I never stated that. The THT does better overall below and above 20hz in contrast to my LLT in my media room.
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post #19 of 26 Old 11-13-09, 10:48 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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I never stated that. The THT does better overall below and above 20hz in contrast to my LLT in my media room.
Yeah, I went back and re-read the thread at AVS. I think I am mixing up different threads.

I always looked at the measurements on Bill's site and saw a drop off at 20 Hz. I figured those were in room measurements.
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post #20 of 26 Old 11-14-09, 12:27 PM
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Re: "There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

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If you have ever heard a good quality horn you know exactly what I am talking about.
I do like folded horn sound, but do not like folded horn size. Why can't I eat my cake?
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