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-   -   New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver (https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/30671-new-build-mkiii-rss390hf-ixl-driver.html)

Doc 07-05-10 05:21 PM

New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

2 Attachment(s)
Hello,

After reading for months:nerd:, I have decided to build a sub. At first my thoughts were to build an IB sub. But with some concerns of shaking up the roof structures :scared:, and more so after some modeling in WinISD, decided to go with ported sub (for now). Now, which driver to use? I have been eying Dayton RSS390HF-4 due to reasonable costs ($159) and good reviews. But then with a little more ... some others could be good contenders. After doing more research I have added Titanik MKIII from Dayton ($179), Mach audio IXL 15.2.2 ($199) and Creative sound Trio-12 with 15"passive radiator and 500w amp (all for $379). I have modeled all these on winISD, but have created more questions. I am looking for some help. Thanks in advance.

First, I will start with pictures of the room.

Screen to back wall is 22 feet, side to side is 16 feet. Height on the sides is about 6 ft, in middle at 8 feet. There is about 25 inches depth under the screen and on the sides of the screen. The screen wall is about 10.5 feet wide. the riser in the back is 12 ft x 6 ft, and 8 inch high. I still have to paint the screen (Black Widow - next weekend) and have the carpet installed -2 weeks.

My IB plan was to place the speaker just under the screen with a box enclosure open to the back where it opens to attic space close to 1500 cubic feet and lined completely with icynene. However, now I will likely create a ported enclosure in the same place - under the screen, in the middle, with bottom, back and top attached to the framing structure for added bracing. This bracing may help me get away with single 3/4 inch MDF, and I have to use two layers only on the sides and the front. Also appearance does not have to great other than the front. In addition, this allows me to create a box with up to 12-14 cubic feet volume.

I will place the modeling in the next post.

-Doc.

Doc 07-05-10 06:04 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

3 Attachment(s)
Now the modeling.

I have posted three files. All are modeled with high pass filters and low pass filters in place. The cone excursions at 300 watts reach the peak xmax in Dayton RSS390HF at 25 Hz. Others are significantly below. Although at first glance Daytons look very good, they are with enclosure at 12 cubic ft:whistling: So with construction design ease in mind, probably the IXL looks to be winner.

At first my plan was to get Behringer amp - either EP2000 or even EP4000. I did that due to possibility that I may "Need" a second sub in the theater and I can power both with same. In that case I actually save some money. But with possibly 12 c.ft enclosure, I may not have room for second one. Now I am thinking of getting Oaudio Bash amp This one has built in high pass filter, parametric equalizer for room mode and also some people report it to be good. If needed, I will add Behringer BFD or EQ later on.


My questions are:

1. Have I modeled correctly? - if any mistakes is spotted please help me correct it first.
2. I can not recreate the manufacturer's graph for CSS TRIO. I think that is because I do not know how to add boost at 25-30 db. How do I correct this? is it just adding some watts behind it?
3. Which driver and design would the experts and experienced folks here recommend? If you have something else in mind please go ahead. However, I do not want to spend $400 for the driver alone (Malestrom)

I may have more questions later. Thanks for help again.

-Doc

Mike P. 07-05-10 06:27 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

To help find the best option for you state what you're willing to pay for a sub and amp.




Doc 07-05-10 07:04 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Thanks Mike for quick reply. I am trying to keep amp and driver for under $600.

MDF, paint and other construction supply is not concern as probably most I have sitting around from other projects over time.

Mike P. 07-05-10 07:26 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

1 Attachment(s)
I came up with a pair of TRIO12's in 10 cu.ft. tuned to 20 hz. Powered by a Crown XLS 1000 amp that is 350 watts per channel.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-500

The amps response rolls off below 20 hz so you wouldn't need a hi-pass filter. This would be close to your budget and offer more output than a 15 inch sub.

Attachment 22584




mdrake 07-05-10 08:43 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

Mike P. wrote: (Post 274593)
I came up with a pair of TRIO12's in 10 cu.ft. tuned to 20 hz. Powered by a Crown XLS 1000 amp that is 350 watts per channel.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-500

The amps response rolls off below 20 hz so you wouldn't need a hi-pass filter. This would be close to your budget and offer more output than a 15 inch sub.

Attachment 22584


That would be a FUN combination. I have the XLS 802 and it works great.

Matt

ironglen 07-05-10 11:45 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Cool room- what mains and projector will you be running?

That's a nice looking response, especially for that budget. The trio looks like a great speaker for the price, and that crown amp looks sweet.

Doc 07-06-10 01:10 AM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Mike P. wrote: (Post 274593)
I came up with a pair of TRIO12's in 10 cu.ft. tuned to 20 hz. Powered by a Crown XLS 1000 amp that is 350 watts per channel.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-500

The amps response rolls off below 20 hz so you wouldn't need a hi-pass filter. This would be close to your budget and offer more output than a 15 inch sub.

Attachment 22584

Thank you. I tried to simulate the same, but came up a bit short on SPL compared to yours. Interestingly, Dayton Titanic 15" and two CSS 12 inch are nearly identical. Hmmm, $320 for CSS vs $180 for Titanic!:scratch: Decisions, Decisions. I will think about this for a day.

Doc 07-06-10 01:27 AM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

ironglen wrote: (Post 274670)
Cool room- what mains and projector will you be running?

Thanks.

I am going to keep my entry level Sony system ($1000 about five years back) for now. They sound great, at least to me. My main purpose is movies, not music. Eventually, would like to make another DIY project, or buy SVS system.

Projectors is a long story. With my budget at about $2500, I have narrowed down to Panasonic AE4000 and Benq W6000. My preference is Panasonic, but may have to settle with Benq despite somewhat lower quality per reviews. Multiple factors play in the decision: screen width 120" with CIH projection. Use of anamorphic lens. I still have to get the lens - either prisms or cylindrical - either one I will probably make it. I am actually working on it. But that is another story and another forum.

Mike P. 07-06-10 05:46 AM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

Interestingly, Dayton Titanic 15" and two CSS 12 inch are nearly identical
Using the same amp, you are correct. I obviously made a mistake when I previously compared them, sorry about that. Given the price difference I'd go with the Titanic 15.






ironglen 07-06-10 09:52 AM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

That crown amp could be bridged to 4Ω for a lone 15" or 18", or even to 2Ω for a pair of 12"s (though I'd have reservations running 2Ω). How much is an 18" IXL?

Doc 07-06-10 02:54 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

ironglen wrote: (Post 274752)
That crown amp could be bridged to 4Ω for a lone 15" or 18", or even to 2Ω for a pair of 12"s (though I'd have reservations running 2Ω).

Reading through the manual it appears that, if I am using only one speaker, I have to use bridged mode. That will increase the power to 700 watts, and I would run risk of bottoming out, if someone increases the amp to max. :spend::yikes: I like Crown amp, but with worries of someone increasing to max, I may go with plate amp.

Quote:

ironglen wrote: (Post 274752)
How much is an 18" IXL?

18" IXL is at $229, but out of stock. That is why I did not think of it. But now that you mentioned, I modeled it also. Surprisingly, it has absolutely no advantage over Titanic 15" or two CSS Trio 12". Actually SPL at 350 watts is a bit lower:huh:

This made me look at Malestrom too. Well, again big surprise, it is nearly identical (on WinISD) to Titanic and two Trio 12". It does have great advantage if I have huge enclosure i.e. IB system, and then I could get it down to 10 Hz relatively flat.

I am now settled on Titanic.

ironglen 07-06-10 03:34 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

I was looking at your budget, and thought, well, the crown was kinda wasted on a single 15", and the ixl 18 is a good deal and could utilize that power (that's where the bigger drivers benefit). Plus, you have a good size room. Have you tried any sub in there yet to see what you get gain-wise? By going with the larger driver you'd get more headroom: always a good thing, especially for HT. Nothing at all wrong with the Titanic.

Doc 07-06-10 05:52 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

ironglen, I agree with your point. That is why originally I thought of IB sub and external amp, with possibility of addition another one in future.

Unfortunately, the room has no carpet and has no sound dampening mechanism - whatever the carpet would provide. I had tried one movie several months ago, but I could get only hum from my then current sub-a capacitor is blown to ashes!- this sub will be my replacement sub.

mdrake 07-06-10 06:30 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

That is a large room and for HT use you would be surprised how easy it is to over drive one 12 or even one 15. I think the suggestion to use an 18 is a sound one. I am not a big fan of Behringer (due to the their reverse engineering practices) but you could go with a Ficar Q18 and an EP-2500 and be just a tad over your budget.

Ficar Q18 = 300.00 + shipping
EP-2500 = 300.00 free shipping at some sites

Matt

Doc 07-06-10 07:30 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

mdrake wrote: (Post 274890)
That is a large room and for HT use you would be surprised how easy it is to over drive one 12 or even one 15. I think the suggestion to use an 18 is a sound one. I am not a big fan of Behringer (due to the their reverse engineering practices) but you could go with a Ficar Q18 and an EP-2500 and be just a tad over your budget.

Ficar Q18 = 300.00 + shipping
EP-2500 = 300.00 free shipping at some sites

Matt

Hmmm, back to drawing board. I can not model this sub --- If I enter the values WinISD has problem with it, and if it is allowed to autocalculate many of the values, they are substantially different than Fi website supplied values. I guess, I should think of two 15 inch or possibly two 12 inch subs. Would it be better to build two separate boxes each housing one 12 inch sub as opposed to putting both in one larger box?

ironglen 07-06-10 10:32 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

A big box uses less wood and can get heavy, while twin boxes allow placement flexibility and ease to move. I think it depends on your placement ideas.

Too bad on the IXL: I know Mike P has been pleased with his Mach 5 drivers, and they're well priced. No idea when available? I'm with Drake on the displacement opinion: it's costly to upgrade drivers/enclosures in money and time. You might spend a bit more on the driver and keep a keen eye on used/b-stock amps as they're solid state should be a relatively safe purchase as far as used goes. You could still make your budget that way...

Doc 07-07-10 07:01 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

I am planning to create this "box" under the screen area. I am planning to permanently fix it there, using the framing structure on top, back and floor board, thus with built in bracings! I may be able to get away with just one 3/4" MDF sheet in these walls, with other "open" and non braced walls of the box using two layers of 3/4" MDF. If it is a large box, it will sit in the middle, if two small boxes, I can keep on each sides and use another built in braced side.

All in all, either way, I do not have to worry about the weight of the box - I am not moving it, looks of the box - only the front will need to be decent, or wood needed - as I have more than enough MDF sitting around for this project.

As doubling the sound means raising SPL by 6 db, I may get more effects from two boxes than placing two drivers in one. I do not have any experience to test that theory though.

ironglen 07-07-10 08:50 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

You'll have to combine the volume for two drivers in a single box, but you'll obtain the same output as separate boxes. The smaller boxes would use smaller pieces, and thus require less bracing to reduce resonance; so it's really up to you. My advice is don't tune below 20hz unless you have an 18", use a hpf, and get the best drivers you can afford (xmax). That way you'll have increased headroom since you have a nice sized room. Post pics of the process too!

mdrake 07-07-10 09:38 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

Doc wrote: (Post 275166)
I am planning to create this "box" under the screen area. I am planning to permanently fix it there, using the framing structure on top, back and floor board, thus with built in bracings! I may be able to get away with just one 3/4" MDF sheet in these walls, with other "open" and non braced walls of the box using two layers of 3/4" MDF. If it is a large box, it will sit in the middle, if two small boxes, I can keep on each sides and use another built in braced side.

All in all, either way, I do not have to worry about the weight of the box - I am not moving it, looks of the box - only the front will need to be decent, or wood needed - as I have more than enough MDF sitting around for this project.

As doubling the sound means raising SPL by 6 db, I may get more effects from two boxes than placing two drivers in one. I do not have any experience to test that theory though.

The other thing to consider is the fact that your chosen location has no corner loading, not that this is necessarily a bad thing but I thought I should mention it as you will not get the gain from corner loading.
I have my sub under my stage and a little over a foot from the corner and it still has plenty of gain.

I hate even typing this as I feel like a total geek but I found the rule on Google so......
Coupling will occur when the frequency is such that the center-to-center distance between the two woofer manifolds is less than one-half wavelength so at 80 hz that would be 7ft. As long as you place your drivers close enougth together you will gain the extra db using two drivers but you could do almost the same thing by going to one 18 vs. one 15. :bigsmile:

ironglen 07-07-10 10:01 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

Quote:

mdrake wrote: (Post 275197)
I hate even typing this as I feel like a total geek

Oh, you're a geek alright :rofl:. Definitely one of the best geeks to help ME when I'm designing a dedicated HT:bigsmile:

Doc 08-24-10 06:50 PM

Re: New build: MKIII, RSS390HF or IXL driver
 

A bit further on the build for room. I will post pics soon. I also had another thread running for theater design. I will probably post more updates there.

I have a projector now. more info is on the other thread above. I just do not want to duplicate same info.


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