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post #21 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 12:13 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

Yes things are officially starting to get quite ridiculous with the possible addition of Danley's TH-50 sub. They use 4 of those to get theater level output in an IMAX in Chicago.

Brandon,

I hope your home is insured buddy...
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post #22 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

I am getting a bit concerned about the structural integrity of my house.

The danley thing is still just a possibility, but its looking more to the possitive. Just spoke with Ivan today and he said the owner, mike, would like him to bring a dts20 along. Told him anything would be good.

Ricci I will get with you to discuss things a bit more thoroughly in the next day or two. We should probably get on the phone over the weekend and we can get more together that way.
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post #23 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 12:37 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

I was thinking the same thing (about the phone, not your home being destroyed).

I'm just worried about the amount of subs at this point. If Ivan brings 2 or 3 Danley subs we are getting up around 12 or 13 and I just don't see how we can get to all of them in just one day. Even if we cut that back to 8 or 9 we will still only have a limited maybe 45min time with each sub and be lucky to get that much time if everything runs smoothly ,which it won't, you know? I don't want anyone to go to all of the effort to bring their stuff out and not really get a fair chance to hear it, because everyone is spending 3 hours on the bigger, bolder, subs like the Danley's, Worx, etc...This is sort of what happened at Patrick's GTG. Everyone was all over the LMS and John's PR sub, with the Mal-x in there too and there were a whole lot of subs there that didn't get near as much play time. Just too much for 1 day.

That said. I definitely am all for at least 1 Danley, or maybe 2 showing up.

Gimme your thoughts here...
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post #24 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

I am with you on there maybe being too many subs. I told Ivan to bring as many as he wants, but that we may not have time for all of them. If we can get this on a time schedule that fits everything in and actually abide by it we will have a better shot at a cleaner running show.
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post #25 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 12:55 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

We'll do our best. I'm curious why you aren't going to use the Pioneer reciever that you own and instead we are going with the HK AVR247 that someone is bringing? I only ask because at the WI GTG that was one of the hiccups that occured was that the reciever we used was switched midway and that took up about an hour getting a new one in place and it threw things off for a bit. I'm just wondering what happens if he's a bit late to arrive (Was it Vili? Kip?) with the receiver and if he wants to cut out a bit early. We are done at that point. Honestly if the Pioneer can work I'd rather use it just because it's yours and it is THERE for the haul. Plus my main goal Friday afternoon is to get my stuff in there and then we can get the main signal chain going and it'll be set-up and ready to roll come Sat., when people can just bring in their sub and amp and plug in.
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post #26 of 56 Old 04-08-09, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

I was wanting to have a backup if we needed and also to have a better range of crossover points. My receiver is very functional, but its old. It only has s video switching to give you an idea of the age. It still sounds decent, but I need a better receiver. We can absolutely use mine, its just not as good as most newer receivers.
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post #27 of 56 Old 04-15-09, 03:16 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

for anyone who may be following this, we are just days away from D-day now. Here is some late news on this shindig.

The 13w7 will not be in attendance. JL pulled out (for all intensive purposes). John J. at AE finally got back with us and he could ship us a TD18H+ but it's the final hour and no one is able to pull together an enclosure for it in time. so AE probably won't be rep'd. Ivan B. from DSL will be showing up with a TH50, CS30 and DTS20. Plus a professional measurement rig. His participation is a huge bonus because he is very experienced and knowledgeable. Kyle Lee has shipped the Worx TL118. Bossobass is attending with his Raven dual 15" LT'd sub. It's an all star line up and there's still a ton of prepping to do...
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post #28 of 56 Old 04-15-09, 07:46 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

This is closing in fast. So... is everything still planned and who all you got confirmed as coming to the meet?

WE WANT LOTS OF PICTURES!!!!! Of people and equipment!
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post #29 of 56 Old 04-28-09, 12:19 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

Here's a break down of what went on at the GTG. This the expanded version.

We placed all of the subs in the same relative spot with a little bit of leeway for the the biggest cabs. We got things as close as we could. The sub position was up front by the left main as seen in the pics. Brandon's room I felt was fairly hard to drive compared to some other rooms (more on that later). It's decent sized, oddly shaped and open too. The subs were next to the doorway to the kitchen and there's a big closet in the room. Also as mentioned...With all of the people and equipment in the room it got real stuffy quickly, which led to us opening the windows sometime after the Shiva (I think?). I thought that the low bass noticeably dropped in level with them open. At least where I stayed all day.

We ran the commercial subs first for simplicity, followed by the DIY subs and lastly the PRO's. This would also build up our output levels throughout the day towards the more powerful subs.

Everything used a 100hz x over from Brandon's receiver with Brandon's Athena mains. The commercials were run as is. The DIY's and PRO's were all run from a single channel of one of the Crest 8002's (850w rated 8ohm, 1400w rated at 4 ohm, 2000w rated at 2ohm per channel) except for the LMS and XXX which I ran bridged on the same 8002. The Worx TL118S we ran on 1 channel of Robert's IT8000. The Danley TH50 Ivan decided to kick up a notch and run a channel of the PL9.0 into it.

Ivan and myself would both get a quick measurement of the subs when they got placed in position. Then we set the levels. We ran the 2 channel music tracks first to check for tonal issues and we ran the same ones into each sub. We mostly just stuck to the first minute or 2 of each track. Then we switched to the movies and did those scenes. Taking notes in the meantime. Unplug the sub, move the new one in place, wash, rinse, repeat. Occasionally throughout the day we started skipping certain scenes as we learned which ones were the best to use.

Here is the 2 channel track list and a description of why I decided on that track.

1. Vast: The Last One Alive
This has a slow build up with a lot of solo bass up in the x over region which builds into some lower tones and finally a beefy kick drum.

2. Tool: Prison Sex
This track is well recorded and the bass and drums are mixed very thick, but are full of nuance in both at the same time.

3. Primus: DMV
This is really punchy drums hits and has a lot of slappy stringy bass sounds all throughout the x over area. If any one note sticks out it's apparent.

4. Cake: The Distance
The bass is sort of funky low-fi but at the same time covers a lot of range and is fairly hot in the mix. Look for any one note that sticks out too much or is MIA.

5. Bass I Love You
I put this on there to see if I could blow up anyone's sub. Seriously it starts out with a mean 30hz note and also has notes at 25hz, 16hz and even 7hz. The 16hz separates the men from the boys. Ivan liked this one and thought maybe it was Danley demo material.




6. Bass Mekanik: Toccata and Fugue
A rip off of Bach's famous work injected with mad bass. Huge 16hz notes, ascending and descending scales and quick changes.

7. SoundGarden: Fresh Tendrils
There is a lot of bass work in this that is just not there on a sloppy or un-even system.

8. Rush: Tom Sawyer
If I need to explain this then it's probably not worth trying to explain anyway.

9. Mudvayne: Trapped In The Wake Of a Dream

This is a heavier bit of music but it has punchy drums and a thick down tuned B string bass that is really well played and recorded. The bass guitar is all over the place and the song has both lighter less cluttered sections and denser heavier sections with fast kick drum hits.

10. The Baroness: Wailing Wintry Wind
This ended up as one of the better tracks IMO not just for drums but for overall system performance. It's a slow build with a floor tom and various stereo guitar effects and the drums come in with a very well recorded live sound and build up on the toms and snare before finally kicking in with a lot of bass and very textured bass guitar work and fat drum sounds.


The movie tracks were in this order. I'll not explain these because most people reading this are familiar with them. I think I have these right...

1. THX Trailer: Amazing Life.
This and Bass I Love You were the real torture tracks in the line up. If a sub got overdriven or fell on it's face it was with one of those 2 tracks nearly every time.




2. Pearl harbor: 50cal machine gun blasts.

3. U571: depth charges

4. The Matrix Revolution: Neo talking to the machine

5. Kung Fu Panda: Thai Lung escape scene

6. The Incredible Hulk: Sonic Cannons
For some reason this just didn't have any real umph to it. Not like when I watch it at my place. It just seemed like it was lower in level than the others and would've needed about 6db more to be the same level as the others. Not sure what happened. That movie is very hot in the sub bass, but it just wasn't there on the disc.

7. Master and Commander: opening cannon battle.

8. Die Hard with a Vengeance: F22 attack scene.

9. War of The Worlds: Pod Emergence.
I felt like this one was similar to the Hulk and was just not near as hot as it is on disc. Still bassy but it didn't have that disgusting hotness in the ULF that it is legendary for, while M&C and Die Hard 4 did.
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post #30 of 56 Old 04-28-09, 12:28 PM
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Re: Another subwoofer GTG, Southern Style

Here's a few further notes on things.

Levels
We tried to keep the mains, which were WAY outgunned once we got to the bigger subs, in a comfortable level for them and also ourselves so that our ears weren't overly fatigued from the mids and highs at the end of the day. Even still I know a few of us were getting there by the end. There's only so much you can expect from little bookshelves powered by a receiver. BTW I thought that the Athena's did well. They sounded good for the ridiculous low price that Brandon paid for them.

We started out setting the levels for the first sub (Bic H100) about as high as we felt it and the Athena's could handle well. I believe at about 5db hot on the SW. This is a sub meet after all. We used a level of -25db on Brandon's receiver all day. His Athena's stayed there for every track. This resulted in pink noise levels of about 70-72db for his speakers during the set-up procedure. What Ivan and myself failed to realize during all of the madness (neither did anyone else ) was that this corresponds to about -5db from REF or higher for movies, the subs were set hot and we started with the 2 channel music tracks . Needless to say levels had to get dialed back quickly on some subs once we hit Bass I Love You, or switched to the THX trailer. DOH! We had originally planned to run every sub at the exact same calibrated level, but with such a huge range of power and very limited time (12 subs in 12hours), we gave up on this. It would've been silly to listen to the Worx and TH50 at the same levels as the little Outlaw LFM1 C. They are made to JAM and we didn't have time to do quiet listening and then another whole session of cranking on them. What we ended up doing was using the THX intro and Bass I Love You to set the levels the old fashioned way. Slowly increase the gain to a level where the sub would handle the THX scene without signs of undue distress and just leave it there. If the sub would handle that track it would be fine with everything else for the most part. Yes this resulted in a wide range of sub levels, but I believe the differences in useable extension, output, impact and relative strength for HT were more easily realized this way. The music tracks would've been imbalanced and were later on with the big subs but you could still tell what was being brought by each sub easily IMO. If a sub sounds clearer and smoother, while at a higher overall volume that another sub cant even touch anyway...

100hz xover.
We were using an indicated 100hz xover for everything but to me it seemed like there was a lot of extra output above this from the subs. This may have been due to the jacked SW level relative to the mains though. I think some of the other guys noted this. Some people wanted to use a lower 60hz type x over, but the mains wouldn't have handled that well I don't think.

Brandon's Room/ Listening positions
As noted quite a few of us thought it was hard to pressurize or drive (Ivan probably didn't since he is used to large arena's and the like). The upper bass seemd fine but the lows were not getting much boost that I could tell. Both mine and Ivan's measurements I believe will show less low end than is expected.

For the most part it seemed like everyone stayed in the same general area throughout the day for listening. Vili and mjg100( Mike) stayed in the back right corner area, Robert stayed over on the left side, Ivan stayed by his rack and laptop in the front left by the closet and I basically sat Indian style in the middle of the floor the whole day centered more or less between the speakers. For me I think this contributed to my feeling that the room was difficult to drive. Later on I sat in some of the other spots closer to walls to see what they sounded like and there was a truckload of more bass in most of those. Only the bigger subs had any real power in the lows where I was at the whole day.

We were over amped the whole day. Just one channel of the 8002 was more than most of the stuff could handle comfortably. We only saw one clip light all day and that was on the CS30 which is a nominal 8 ohm load, so it was seeing about 800-900w peaks from one channel. Ivan was pushing it pretty hard on some music tracks at that point. That was it.
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