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post #41 of 128 Old 02-12-09, 04:34 AM
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

I had thought about putting a couple of Pillar or Table Top traps in the room to replace two tables that I removed. I would be interested in your take on the peformance of the Monster vs. the Pillar. From the website, it seems they are similar since there is absorption from all sides on the Pillar.

I am still simply amazed at the difference traps made in my room. Wife and I watched AI last night and I kept having to turn the sub down (and the volume down on some singers). The bass is so much more omnidirectional now, probably due to taming peaks in the mid bass more than anything else.
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post #42 of 128 Old 02-12-09, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

Quote:
hjones4841 wrote: View Post
I had thought about putting a couple of Pillar or Table Top traps in the room to replace two tables that I removed. I would be interested in your take on the peformance of the Monster vs. the Pillar. From the website, it seems they are similar since there is absorption from all sides on the Pillar.

I am still simply amazed at the difference traps made in my room. Wife and I watched AI last night and I kept having to turn the sub down (and the volume down on some singers). The bass is so much more omnidirectional now, probably due to taming peaks in the mid bass more than anything else.
I will do a comparrison when they arrive. I think that I will have to measure/listen to the performance of each in a different room to base my opinion on the two, but I'm not entirely sure. With the Pillar Traps I just move them around the room and listen to the improvements, then measure. It was much easier than to measure, place them, then have to move them again to improve the results. It's not as quick a proccess to do that with the 244's, but if the Monsters are close to being like the Pillars, setup should be simple.
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post #43 of 128 Old 02-16-09, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

This is with 3 GIK 244's hung vertical at the first reflection points on each left or right wall, the 2" panels along the stage, Pillar Traps in the front corners with the insulation under them, added insulation inside the right ceilings corner, and insulation in the corners inside the Helmholtz Resonators in the back. I removed the reflective board in the ceiling above the left center and right speakers as well.

This gave me a large dip from the ports at the bottom of the speakers again.



I measured at 12" for the left speaker, then again at the floor.



I borrowed a 244 from the furthest first reflection point on the right wall and placed it on the floor horizontal next to the speaker, then remeasured. I then measured from the seat again. I looked at the the back row and the front row again. The Monster traps should be here tommorow. I still think I need another pair of 244's after seeing this problem come up again, and treating the back wall and front wall could wait. Suggestions are welcome, and I am undecided after several days of thinking about this which is more important. I tried with the insulation behind a couple of the 244's.







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post #44 of 128 Old 02-16-09, 06:38 PM
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

I am sure you thought of this already, but take some measurements of the 244 vs. Monster in the same location. It would be interesting to see how well the performance difference in your room correlates to the test reports. The test reports are what convinced me to go all Monster, since I was starting from scratch with traps and needed to maximize absorption per unit size. I suppose there is a tradeoff, tho. Absorption distributed thruout the room vs. more concentrated absorption at fewer places.
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post #45 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

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hjones4841 wrote: View Post
I am sure you thought of this already, but take some measurements of the 244 vs. Monster in the same location. It would be interesting to see how well the performance difference in your room correlates to the test reports. The test reports are what convinced me to go all Monster, since I was starting from scratch with traps and needed to maximize absorption per unit size. I suppose there is a tradeoff, tho. Absorption distributed thruout the room vs. more concentrated absorption at fewer places.
7" is as thick it goes for first reflection points I think. The Monsters control a more broad-range of frequencies, and are highly effective in those where music is critical. Right around the left and right speakers from where those sounds are coming from where I have boundary interferance could very well be a good place for them, and it could avoid exciting some slightly my room modes that are critical to left and right stereo imaging. As the pressure changes in the corners the percieved tonal balance from them changes, and this effects the important acoustic foci. I will give them a try there.

The back of my rooms corners effect the same frequencies, which is why I placed some insulation there.
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post #46 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

This morning I have done my best to decouple the subwoofers from the side walls. The side walls are not attached to the ceiling except in small areas with caulk to prevent rattles, that are partially sealed off using fabric. The left wall is staggered, and the right, front, back walls are semi staggered with the framing attached to the concrete using liquid nails. Each board inside the HT is caulked or glued then nailed into place.

The subwoofer in the back I removed the stage, then sat the subwoofer on half dozen or so concrete tiles that I surrounded with insulation. The side ones I cut a hole under the Subdudes, added more insulation, then screwed them into the platforms using many nails so that I could space them from the wall, allowing the ports to breath. There is some area to absorb some energy from the ports on the side walls as well. The insulation will later be covered in fabric and I will refinish the subwoofers eventually with paint instead of the layer on them.





This should help for the testing purposes, and I might gain back some acoustic energy from the subwoofers.
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post #47 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

Here are the test results with the traps next to my main speakers ports at the floor on concrete. I placed a 244 or Monster in each corner in front of the corner trapping laying horizontal on the floor. They were beside the bottom of the 244's and spaced from the wall the distance of the 244's but the 244's are not perfectly flat against the wall. I measured each speaker with and without the subwoofers on, the subwoofers by themselves, and then repeated the test for each different trap. When a different trap was tested, it was removed from the area and brought into the house, not into the lobby next to the theater. The mic was not moved, and levels were not adjusted. You can click the thumbnails to see the larger images.

244 Traps

right no subs 244 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


right xo 244 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


left no subs 244 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


left xo 244 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


before equalization subwoofers with 244 traps5 sweeps at 256K


Monster Traps

right monster no subs 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


right monster xo 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


left no subs monster 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


left xo monster 1 sweep at 256K 1/24 smoothing


before equalization subwoofers with monster traps 5 sweeps at 256K


example subwoofer equalization with monster traps 1 sweep at 256K


example after subwoofer equalization with one main 1 sweep at 256K

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post #48 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 06:15 PM
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

Interesting. Looks like narrower ringing frequency distribution in the 23-24 Hz range with the Monsters but with a higher amplitude. I think that happened in my room for the mods done last weekend. However, on mine the whole amplitude from 20-40 or so went up on the FR response plot. I am not seeing that on yours, unless you normalized the volume.

How many filters did it take to flatten the FR? Looks good.
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post #49 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

Quote:
hjones4841 wrote: View Post
Interesting. Looks like narrower ringing frequency distribution in the 23-24 Hz range with the Monsters but with a higher amplitude. I think that happened in my room for the mods done last weekend. However, on mine the whole amplitude from 20-40 or so went up on the FR response plot. I am not seeing that on yours, unless you normalized the volume.

How many filters did it take to flatten the FR? Looks good.
I'm not sure how accurate that is under 35Hz - 40Hz. Each time I measure the ringing changes from around at least 3 and up to 5 or 6 of the slices in the waterfalls. I did notice the response changing when I went from the 244's to the monsters quite easily, espicially in the room modes I was targeting for the test. I used 6 filters for my subwoofer. The target is a 120Hz crossover slope for LFE so I need to add some more filters than if I were to use a crossover from something such as a CD input. The desription of the optional settings on my Outlaw 950 are:

Quote:
6-channel analog input
bass management off: full-range speakers receive full-range signal, subwoofer receives LFE signal plus information below 80Hz from the other five full-range speakers ("double bass" condition); subwoofer also has a filter that discards material above 120Hz on the LFE input signal (material that subs typically can't reproduce well)
bass management on: full-range speakers receive all information above 80Hz, subwoofer receives LFE signal plus information below 80Hz from other five full-range speakers; subwoofer also has a filter that discards material above 120Hz on the LFE input signal (material that subs typically can't reproduce well)
I have it set to the on position. The subwoofers themselves have no crossover, and are only powered by mono amps.

More on that here. To measure a more accurate reading I use a CD that I burned with REW of Pink PN in my CD player to check things when I am happy with results I get in the sweeps.

I didn't touch any volume except that I calibrated levels of the mains to the target before I began measuring while I had the 244's in place. The settings were pre/pro master gain -10, subwoofer 0, mains +3 or +2. I have the gain turned up in REW so that it is a 75dB target instead of raising the gain on my pre/pro and lowering the volume in REW for the 85dB target.

Last edited by thewire; 02-17-09 at 07:15 PM.
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post #50 of 128 Old 02-17-09, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: My GIK Pillar Trap Review

I think that I see what you are saying about being effective down at 40Hz. In my measurements if I zoom in to 40Hz - 200Hz, and then lower the graph down I can see that there is a pretty effective amount of absorption around that range in the waterfall graphs.

yellow = Monster Traps
blue = 244 Traps

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