DIY Room Treatments - Coverings - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 01:00 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

I think I'm a little confused by your statements.

If carpet is great because it reduces reflections by absorbing (and yes, it's better than concrete walls) then it would be okay to address first reflection points with carpet instead of 1" of fiberglass. But I don't believe it works nearly as well.

And if it absorbed reflections so well, then sticking it behind my fridge should absorb some of the noise coming out the back of the fridge before it gets reflected into the room.

I don't doubt it's better than the bare drywall. But I don't think it'll be enough either.
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post #12 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 01:42 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

I think Wayne brought up a good point -- soundproofing vs. treating a room. I actually couldn't tell what your ultimate goal was. I'm assuming you're going for treating.

I differ a little bit with Wayne on how best to accomplish "treating" a room. I'm more of a early reflection killer rather than going with an (and I may be misinterpreting him) all out assault. Possibly a slight exaggeration.

I've been in an overtreated room and it sounded awful. It was just too dead. I've also been in a room that had a significant amount of work done hitting the early reflections that left the rear of the room live (a bookcase with a bunch of knickknacks that acted as one big diffuser). It was really amazing how the music sounded, at least to me, in that room.

Regarding using carpet, I know it will kill some reflections, but it doesn't do well under 2000kHz (here is a link for the absorption of a lot of different materials).
Here are the the numbers for "Heavy carpet on concrete" vs "Fiberglass Boards: 5.1cm" vs. 2" OC703:
63......125.....250.....500....1k.......2k......4k......8k
0.02....0.02....0.06 ...0.14....0.37....0.60....0.65....0.65
0.17....0.17....0.55....0.80....0.90....0.85....0.80....0.80
??.......0.17....0.86....1.14....1.07....1.02....0.98....??

As for materials to use for covering your fiberglas, in addition to Burlap, I've heard Canvas, Non-tight Cotton Weave, Muslin, or any natural fiber in a somewhat open weave being recommended.

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post #13 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 02:51 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Wayne,

Thanks for the suggestion. I mentioned the new window treatments were not put up yet. We just had the windows replaced and are in the middle of picking everything out.

Its is our family/great room but its just the wife and I, she wants it to sound as good as I do. That wall looks way 'worse' in the pics than in person, we never notice the blank wall space because of at eye level you don't notice it as much.

The DIY wall treatments we saw were acceptable to us. We could do some kind of decorative pattern and frame it out. Is that a better or worse treatmen than carpet? I'm talking about the poly/fiberglass/poly frame ups you see on the net.

I only mentioned the idea about the room being quieter because one of the DIY websites mentioned that the room seemed quite a bit quieter after the treatment.
If we came up with something nice and decorative we would put a few up in the bedroom just to make it a calmer room all together.

I am in the middle of finishing up my Gainclone amp and next will be a set of speakers/sub for the bedroom which I hope will be on par with what I have in the great room right now so treating it still wouldn't be a bad idea. Its 17x15 with 12' trey ceilings. Thats a month or two off thankfully
 
post #14 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 03:56 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Although you addressed Wayne, and I'm sure he'll pipe in, I thought I'd address some of your q's as well.

Quote:
Eric_C wrote: View Post
Its is our family/great room but its just the wife and I, she wants it to sound as good as I do.
You're a lucky man to have a SigOther that's into this stuff.

Quote:
Eric_C wrote: View Post
The DIY wall treatments we saw were acceptable to us. We could do some kind of decorative pattern and frame it out.
There are a lot of things you can do to make the treatments more aethestically pleasing. The best I've see was a 2x4 panel wrapped in a dark maroon fabric and framed with decorative twisted black metal. It looked really good.. at least to me.

Quote:
Eric_C wrote: View Post
Is that a better or worse treatmen than carpet? I'm talking about the poly/fiberglass/poly frame ups you see on the net.
OC703 or it's equivelent is significantly better (see numbers posted above) than carpet for treating a room.

Quote:
Eric_C wrote: View Post
I only mentioned the idea about the room being quieter because one of the DIY websites mentioned that the room seemed quite a bit quieter after the treatment.
It does make it quieter because you don't have as many echoes bouncing around the room. However, if it's done "right", it's not smothering.

Quote:
Eric_C wrote: View Post
I am in the middle of finishing up my Gainclone amp and next will be a set of speakers/sub for the bedroom which I hope will be on par with what I have in the great room right now so treating it still wouldn't be a bad idea. Its 17x15 with 12' trey ceilings. Thats a month or two off thankfully
I hope you share your experience with the amp. I love all this DIY stuff.

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post #15 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 04:28 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

JCD,

Thanks for the info. The amp is "done", meaning it plugs in, lights up, and measures out correct. Can't go any further until I mount it in the box which should be this weekend.

What is OC703?

The wife is pretty easy on this stuff, she'll ok with putting the two sonotubes in that room although the look on her face when we picked up the tube yesterday was...interesting
post #16 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 04:49 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

OC703 is Owens Corning Series 703 compressed fiberglass panels. Their original purpose was to insulate HVAC units (if you want to get them locally, that's who'll you'll have to call to get them). Most pre-made and home made treatments are made of it. They generally come in sheets of 2'x4' in thicknesses of 1', 2" (usually used for treatments, and 4" (used for bass traps).
They look like this:


There are other manufactures (Johns-Manville, CertainTeed, Delta, etc) that make similar products, but OC703 is usually what gets mentioned.

And I can only IMAGINE what her face looked like when you showed her the sonotubes.

Sidetrack here.. when I was auditioning speakers during my last go around, I two pairs of floor standers (I had bookshelves before). She was in the bedroom/bathroom so she didn't see me bring them in or set them up. Once I was done, I asked her to come in to get her opinions. She walked in, talking to me, and while talking finally looked at the speakers. She LITERALLY jumped back like she was about to step on a snake. She relented and let me get what I wanted, but I was thinking I'd never get them past SWMBO.

Also, I hope you took lots of pics of the building process of your amp.. I expect a detailed "report" to be posted with lots of pictures. Especially after you get the thing boxed up.

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post #17 of 25 Old 12-29-06, 10:53 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Joshua,
Quote:
And if it absorbed reflections so well, then sticking it behind my fridge should absorb some of the noise coming out the back of the fridge before it gets reflected into the room.
The problem is that your refrigerator isn’t really generating noise from the back. The stuff that makes all the noise - the compressor and the fan – are typically underneath it, so it’s radiating sound from the bottom in all directions.

Even if yours is actually generating noise out the back, carpet on the wall behind it would only stop upper-frequency reflections. There will still be sound escaping from the space between the back of the ‘fridge and the wall, because refrigerator noise is mid-to-low mid frequencies, which are more omnidirectional than highs. You would have to totally air-seal the back of the refrigerator to the wall to have any chance of totally blocking the sound. As you may know, “airtight” is one of the first rules of effective soundproofing.

Quote:
If carpet is great because it reduces reflections by absorbing (and yes, it's better than concrete walls) then it would be okay to address first reflection points with carpet instead of 1" of fiberglass. But I don't believe it works nearly as well.
I’m not sure how to read Jacen’s chart, or the one on his link, but when I stuck a remnant of our carpet in front of my speaker playing pink noise, it was attenuating very well a full octave below 2 kHz. My RTA was showing that attenuation started below 500 Hz, and was 12 dB down at 1kHz. So basically, 12 dB/octave attenuation below 500 Hz.

What I’ve seen in the places we’ve lived over the years is that wall-to-wall carpet, along with regular room furnishings, is enough to sufficiently dampen and diffuse the sound, to the point that echo is zero. So carpet may not be as good as the fiberglass, but in many (if not most) cases it works fine. If you didn’t have carpet, or not enough of it, and you needed treatments, I can see where the fiberglass would be a good choice, mainly because the treatment won’t be near the square footage that there would be if the floor was carpeted. So obviously you want to get as much performance as you can out of the square footage you are treating.

But then, I’ve never had a situation like Eric’s with my speakers firing directly at a vast, uninterrupted expanse of sheetrock. If it was me, and if reverberation was a problem, I think I’d look into putting the system on the wall where the couch is now. The other side of the room has more irregularity in the walls, like the staircase and the staggered wall, that would help diffuse the sound.

Eric,
Quote:
The DIY wall treatments we saw were acceptable to us. We could do some kind of decorative pattern and frame it out. Is that a better or worse treatmen than carpet?
By all means then, use the treatments! Wasn’t catching it that your wife was on board - I just threw the carpet idea out there as something she might go along with.

Regards,
Wayne
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post #18 of 25 Old 12-30-06, 04:32 AM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Am no expert, lets make that clear from the start. I had a major echo problem in my room and decided to put up some panels. I covered my panels in a loosely woven cloth, was going to use speaker cloth but could not get hold of it in red. The rest of the panels were just left uncovered though they do have a treated surface and so no fibres should be released. The panels are made by a company called Ecophon, and are made from rigid fibreglass and were very easy to cut down to size, they could basically be cut into any shape. I am still very happy with the improvement in sound quality and the outlay was minimal. Here is a link to my thread where you can see some pics. Just my 0.02c

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post #19 of 25 Old 12-30-06, 01:03 PM
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Lightbulb Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Quote:
JCD wrote: View Post
Regarding using carpet, I know it will kill some reflections, but it doesn't do well under 2000kHz
Exactly, this is the key, and I can elaborate a bit more.

Most "soft" materials absorb 100 percent at some high frequency, then the absorption falls off at lower frequencies. So a thick carpet might absorb 100 percent down to 2 KHz, where 1 inch thick 703 absorbs 100 percent down to 1 KHz. Now, if you make the 703 2 inches thick it absorbs 100 percent down to 500 Hz. And so forth. So it's not like thicker materials absorb more overall as much as they extend the same amount of absorption to an ever-lower frequency.

The reason this matters in a listening room is because uniform absorption versus frequency is needed to maintain a uniform response versus frequency. This is the main problem with thin absorbing materials. They might make the room seem dead enough at "hand clap" frequencies, but the bass and low mids are still bouncing around making a muddy mess of the music. And when there's more total energy at those low frequencies due to the longer decay times, the frequency response balance is also affected.

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post #20 of 25 Old 12-30-06, 08:04 PM
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Re: DIY Room Treatments - Coverings

Great info, Ethan. That’s exactly what my quick-and-dirty “carpet-and-RTA” experiment was showing, that absorption reduced the lower the frequency went.
However...
Quote:
The reason this matters in a listening room is because uniform absorption versus frequency is needed to maintain a uniform response versus frequency.
...just how much 703 treatment does a room need to accomplish this? If it’s as many square ft. as the carpet on the floor, that’s an awful lot of wall treatment!

Regards,
Wayne
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