Bass trap placement - high or low? Does it matter? - Page 10 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #91 of 110 Old 03-05-14, 01:34 PM
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How would adding more subs to a room deal with a room that has very slow decay that makes bass muddy? If just adding a few subs to the room was the answer then there would be no need to have traps and yet many of us use them to great effect.

Have you even been in a treated room before?
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post #92 of 110 Old 03-05-14, 01:54 PM
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Re: Bass trap placement - high or low? Does it matter?

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How would adding more subs to a room deal with a room that has very slow decay that makes bass muddy?
It's not just "add subs". It's add subs, apply eq. Fixing the frequency domain, the "mud" goes away.
Can you show me a "trap" that affects time domain and not frequency? You are "fixing" amplitude with absorption, just in a less efficient manner.

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If just adding a few subs to the room was the answer...
It is the answer for smooth amplitude (and resulting perception), greater output/headroom, lower distortion and better power efficiency. All actively adjustable, not passively fixed.

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...then there would be no need to have traps and yet many of us use them to great effect.
Well, perhaps those that do have different needs than above. To each their own if the methods gets you where you want to be.

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Have you even been in a treated room before?
Many, including the iso-wards studiophile types like to hang out in.

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post #93 of 110 Old 03-05-14, 02:14 PM
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Trust me I run a pair of subs and it helped to smooth out the bass quite a bit but I also found that adding traps helps the room quite a bit. I however did not trap to the point to where the room is dead.
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post #94 of 110 Old 03-06-14, 01:16 PM
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Re: Bass trap placement - high or low? Does it matter?

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Trust me I run a pair of subs and it helped to smooth out the bass quite a bit
Two are insufficient for spatially averaged smoothing. Three would be a minimum.

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but I also found that adding traps helps the room quite a bit.
In terms of amplitude? Any EQ? Does that mean you didn't try more than 2 subs? What was the cost of the traps? How big are they?

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I however did not trap to the point to where the room is dead.
Well, your perception and preferences are what matter most here. It may not be "dead" to you, but I doubt they had no effect on spatial reproduction and spaciousness. That's why I ask people what they hear...and what they prefer.
I know fully well that 99% do not attend symphony's/live acoustic music and may judge by unknown to me references. Their local movie theater? A high end stereo shop? Who knows?
So I ask.

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post #95 of 110 Old 03-06-14, 09:41 PM
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Let me put it this way. The room is a audio nightmare, it sounded like a ecco chamber. You could clap your hand and hear the sound bounce around the room.

The floor is a slab of concrete and there is no carpet on it so it reflects everything more of less. The one wall is concrete with fake wood panel on it for show the kitchen wall is plaster and the other walls are wood studs which sit in front of brick outer wall and on the studs there is loosely tacked on 1/8 inch 1970's fake wood panel.

The couch is leather so that does not soak up much and there is a nice door wall that messes up things as well.

As for the panels I have they were grabbed used off of Craig's list for $150 and I got 5 GIK 244 and 1 GIK 242 for that amount so not bad.
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post #96 of 110 Old 03-07-14, 03:10 PM
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Hi Babak,,

Is there any data (3rd party preferably) showing the efficacy of those type products?
What is the cost?
That would be interesting to compare, vs the same cost subwoofers. Subwoofers that would increase output, lower distortion and be actively adjustable...and most likely much smaller and less obtrusive, both physically and spatially.
Of course, with subs, usually at most, only 3-4 would be needed.
I've never quite grasped the concept of going through the trouble of creating energy....only to throw it away. Seems wasteful to me.
Sorry, I don't have any 3rd party measurements.

The costs are about 200 Euros reach, if I remember right.

I also don't like the idea to create energy to throw it away.

That's why I adopted Toole's idea not to excite room modes in the first place by placing the subs on nulls of room modes.
And also to reduce the effect of the modes by placing the listening position on nulls of other modes.

His following steps are
- Add bass absorbers, then
- narrow band EQ to reduce frequencies of remaining modes


I don't need to absorb modes that are not being excited and that don't build up sound pressure on the listening position.

There are also other reasons why I would always prefer full range speakers on the right positions (in regards to the modes) to subs that are separated from the sprakers by 1 or 2 meters. One single sub is also a bad solution from my point of view.


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Babak

Last edited by Babak; 03-07-14 at 03:22 PM.
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post #97 of 110 Old 03-07-14, 03:54 PM
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Name a full range speaker that can do want sub can do in a room when placed where it will image and have good overall balance to the sound that can play down to 20hz or less when also placed on the nulls of a given room and cost under 10k

The best place for the speakers to image may not be on a room null and how often is the best most even location for bass in that spot?

And when I am talking full range I mean tested to be flat to 20hz or less without room gain being added in and not can play down to stuff that some company say but by time it is at 20hz it is down 25db
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post #98 of 110 Old 03-07-14, 04:02 PM
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Re: Bass trap placement - high or low? Does it matter?

Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I don't need to get down to 20 Hz for audio only purposes. Not sure if I need it for HT. Some speakers have plenty of extension to satisfy me in their optimum placement for imaging. Most of the speakers in the last review session we did were fine without a sub IMO. You might want more extension, and a sub is needed for that, but not everyone does.




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post #99 of 110 Old 03-07-14, 04:13 PM
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But there is a difference between a speaker and good sub and how deep it can dig. A good speaker can did deep for music we both know that but with home theater the lfe channel can have effects down to 5hz I don't think I want my mains trying to deal with such things.

My friend tried to run a book shelf speaker set to full range with no sub. Played fine at reference volume until a nice loud bomb went off in the movie and popped a driver.
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post #100 of 110 Old 03-07-14, 04:20 PM
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Re: Bass trap placement - high or low? Does it matter?

No one is denying that there is a difference in what subs can do and what most speakers can do. The point is that many full range speakers CAN be satisfying to many people. The amount of actual signal below 30 hz is minimal actually, and not of great importance to most people.

Don't confuse your own priorities with those of others. They may not have any connection.




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