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4U2NVME 09-07-10 11:14 AM

Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Morning all,

After much reading of HTS I'm finding the HT room that I wanted to build was actually not the HT room I needed to build to get the HT I wanted to build, that make sense?

I now am starting to figure out is that I need to work on my Room Acoustics. I am starting to build my house this week so I'm in the planning phase of the HT room. I would like to do it right, but do it DIY. I hope that is possible with someone who has not done this before. Is there a good book or program that explains it well and does not start out at Level 8 acoustical speak? But ramp you up slowly, and take into account that I do somewhat understand sound.

I have the basics of a floor plan, am starting to understand the syle of room I want to create, but now need to build in DIY acoustical panels. Anybody out there willing to work with me a little?

Thanks all for reading, I can supply any and all the details that I have up to this point.

-NV

bpape 09-07-10 11:27 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Post what you have. We'll be willing to help as much as possible.

I work with DIY folks all the time who have never done this before. Making them isn't difficult if you have tools and a bit of skill. You don't need to be Norm Abhrams though ;)

The biggest thing is to understand what, how much, and where the treatments go depending on room size, number of seats, desired room usage, etc.

Bryan

4U2NVME 09-07-10 03:43 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

OK below I have posted up a new room design. Its just a rough drawing to get an good feeling for visual, auditory and physical distances. I would like to have a 10 foot screen in the new front of the room (if the size is not to large). It would be set up for a 2.4:1 aspect ratio. I would like to build a stage for the front of the room as well.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...roombuild2.jpg

I have a set of:

Towers
Rear or Side
Powered Sub box ( Can't remember brand right now ), will be getting a new sub or two. I did look at the IB forum for DIY subs but not sold on them. Having to put in 4 - 12' subs is a bit much for me in terms of cost. The one I did see that I liked, he used the space behind the screen as is infinite baffle.

want to get:
Center Channel
Second set of the Rear speakers.

If I go for a 9.2 or 9.1 system I would add these more then likely. They would be behind the screen with the center and other tower speakers.



I think these buttkickers sound cool, anybody have any experience with them? If so please let me know if its any more than just a cool thing to have once or twice, and possibly anything you may have learned from installing them or using them. I am not sure since I think its still sound waves that makes this work do I need to worry about reflection with them?

Butt Kicker

I will be building columns to house my speakers in them behind some acoustical transparent materials so they look hidden. There are a couple HT's on here that I like and may model mine after somewhat. I am looking for some software to model my room out and see how it would look before I build it. Just have not found one that I want to use currently. I am looking at some 3D modeling software that was or is supplied by Google, just not sure how will it will work for me yet.

-NV

Fire away any questions. I may have to do this in phases, as in get a good working HT room and then build it up later to what I actually want. Its a matter of cost really.

The Receiver I will be using (99% chance) is the Onkyo 3007, with a Panasonic 4000AU HT projector.

bpape 09-07-10 04:20 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

9' from a 10' screen is going to be pretty close. Also, with an AT screen, you'll want to leave some space between the faces of the speakers and the cloth itself to minimize comb filtering.

Make sure to keep your speakers out of a corner and try to maintain as much left to right symmetry as possible.

IB subs can be absolutely killer - though they do need a good amount of breathing space behind them and don't know what the rest of your room layout looks like to know if they would work.

Buttkickers, well, if it's between that and upgrading the PJ, Screen, or Sub, I'd skip them. They can be a nice effect if done right but it is money that IMO is better spent elsewhere.

Speakers - honestly never heard of those before. If you want something that will perform very well for a very reasonable price, check these out - http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...m/cmt340m.html

About the same price range and very good performance for the money. You don't need a floorstander in a home theater environment. You're going to cut them off at 80ish Hz anyway and cross to the sub. Spend your money on a good sub.

Treating the room will be interesting. You've lost 3 corners due to door(entry), rear door to furnace room, and the screen being pushed all the way to the right side. Side wall reflection panels and treatment of the front wall will be in order. The trick is to find places to get enough broadband bass control in the room.

Bryan

4U2NVME 09-13-10 01:45 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Bryan,

What if I were to move the door to the furnace room over to closer to the middle of the wall, or at least off the corner. Would this make a difference and allow me to deliver a better balanced sound?

What do you mean by a floor stander? Is that the larger Tower speakers? I may go for different speakers in the future, but currently I already have thsse Towers and sides and will re-use them, well at least for now. Its quite a bit chaper for me to get the center channel and a second set of book shelf sized or mid tower sized speakers and change at a later date.

-Brad.

bpape 09-13-10 08:03 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

If we can avoid chopping off that corner and move the door a bit, yes, that would help.

If you already have the speakers and need to reuse, that's certainly understandable.

Bryan

4U2NVME 09-13-10 05:07 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Humm, was working on my 3D model till about 2am last night. I will need to finish it, but I think I need a serious redesign. I would of thought that a 17 or 18 foot long room would of been more than enough space. I'll post it up and see what you all think, but I don't belive I will have enough room, If I need to leave a 3 foot space to the back wall, 2 feet from the front wall to the AT screen and add a second row of seats. Its pretty cramped. I have Load bearing walls behind my room so I don't think I can move the wall back I really wanted 8 people to sit in it, but it appears I may only get 6 at most or maybe even 4 =c(. HELP please.

bpape 09-13-10 05:11 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

The screen size for the room should be driven by the viewing angles with seating placed in the proper position. 10' is probably going to be a bit much.

One way to gain some space is to not do an AT screen and just have visible speakers.

Bryan

eugovector 09-13-10 05:12 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Pillows on the floor, or put a row of seating against the back wall, but don't sit there if you care about the sound. You also have room for another non-critical seat near the 2'2" wall bump-out.

eugovector 09-13-10 05:31 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

bpape wrote: (Post 291347)
The screen size for the room should be driven by the viewing angles with seating placed in the proper position. 10' is probably going to be a bit much.

One way to gain some space is to not do an AT screen and just have visible speakers.

Bryan

I'll be less diplomatic...your screen is too big. Right now you have 0 god seats. Shrink it down and move your front row forward is you want more than 4 good seats.

4U2NVME 09-13-10 10:54 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

eugovector wrote: (Post 291352)
I'll be less diplomatic...your screen is too big. Right now you have 0 god seats. Shrink it down and move your front row forward is you want more than 4 good seats.

Eugovector please be blunt!!! :help: lol

I did shrink the screen down last night this is what I have figured I would go with last night, just was drawing it up.

My viewing distance currently is going to be approx 9 feet on the first row and about 12.5 feet on the second row. According to Myhometheater if I make my viewing distance of the back row for 13 feet, I should have a screen size width of about 100 inches? This calculator below is for 16:9.

Viewing Distance/Screen Size

Correct my math if I am wrong please, to calculate the height of my screen I would take the ratio’s:
2.4/1 = 2.4: I would take 100”/2.4 and get a screen height of 41.667”
16/9= 1.778: I would take 100”/1.778 and get a screen height of 56 “
4/3=1.334: and for this one I think I would shrink the width to fit the 56 “ height. That would give me a width of 56 * 1.334 = 75.0” correct?

Is that more in line with what you think is more reasonable? I want to put my rear speakers and side speakers in pillars so they are hidden, put a nice rope light on the ceiling in a alcove/wane scotting?? if that is the correct term. Also I want to create a star night sky with some fiber for the center ceiling, I want to surprise my wife, she knows I want to do the star night sky, but what I have not told her is that I plan to do the night sky the same as it was the night we were married. :whistling:

Learning this 3D program so that will take some time yet to create and finish it. The God seat as you call it is the one at 12 feet in the middle but its pretty close to the back wall. Here are there screen shots of what I have so far.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...0Build/3D3.jpg

The Door swing on the above object for the front door will go out and not into the theater.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...0Build/3D1.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...0Build/3D2.jpg

The head position in the first row is at about 9 feet, and the head position in the second row is about 13 feet from the front screen and just over 3 feet from the back wall, so I guess that is not so bad. I will most likely be moving the door to the back room next to the equipment rack so I can put a base trap or what ever is needed in both corners.:hsd:

-NV

eugovector 09-13-10 11:52 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Will you be sitting in the backrow or the front row?

PS: "god seat" was supposed to be "good seat", but this fingers can be slow at time. That being said, I like the term, accident that it is.
Posted via Mobile Device

4U2NVME 09-14-10 12:34 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

eugovector wrote: (Post 291408)
Will you be sitting in the back row or the front row?

PS: "god seat" was supposed to be "good seat", but this fingers can be slow at time. That being said, I like the term, accident that it is.
Posted via Mobile Device

I like being higher up, so I would assume the back middle seat. I could push the screen back and build the center channel and put it above the screen or below the screen with the towers to the left and right and build it out more like this one but not sure if it would look funny with the screen set in closer to the back wall and have the sides built out. I would not need to go the full 30" I guess on the build outs since I don't need to worry about the speakers interfering with the AT screen. I just really wanted to put some lights behind the screen and light the speakers up behind for a show piece. Still thinking, planning. Really open to suggestions from the experts ;) and blunt is ok as well. Kind of like when IMAX shows their speakers behind their massive screen...I would just like mine on a much smaller scale lol.

Hope that above paragraph made sense.

bpape 09-14-10 07:07 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

The front center seat will be the best in the house in terms of surround and general audio performance.

You've taken a big step from 10' wide to 100" diagonal. Somewhere in between would still be OK.

If you're going to build any kind of enclosure for the are behind the screen, I would highly recommend that it be only framing and cloth - no hard surfaces or you'll have a big problem on your hands.

Also, just for aesthetics, I'd take the far side of it all the way over to the wall. Just my 2 cents on this one.

Bryan

eugovector 09-14-10 10:19 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

bpape wrote: (Post 291443)

Also, just for aesthetics, I'd take the far side of it all the way over to the wall. Just my 2 cents on this one.

Bryan

Yes, and fill it with insulation.

eugovector 09-14-10 10:28 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Keep in mind that you'll want easy access to the space behind the screen. Plan on building a door in the back, or to the left hand side of the screen.

That screen size calculator will work great, but I agree with Bryan that you should anticipate the front row middle will have the best performance (and you don't want you head right by your equipment rack because of potential noise). If you like being higher/screen lower, you can lower the screen, just keep in mind that people sitting in row 2 will need to look over heads, so a taller riser may be in order.

Unless I'm seeing wrong 100" is your planned width, and 116"" is your planned diagonal? Just keep it around THX specs and move your rows until you are happy with your layout. I'd shoot for as big a screen as possible using the middle front as the sweet spot, while still not having to push your rows so far back that your 2nd row is up against the wall blocking access to your equipment and giving them a poor surround field.

bpape 09-14-10 10:30 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

If you build just a stick frame and cover with cloth 'grilles' attached with velcro to the framing, they will be easily removable for access behind the screen as a side benefit of that type of construction.

Bryan

eugovector 09-14-10 10:39 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Good call.

4U2NVME 09-18-10 12:01 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Here is an example of two room that I may pattern mine off of. They have the black frames up front like you suggested which should give easy access behind. I will make the roof much more interesting then these two, but I like the wall treatments and I think it will help with the noise reflection?

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...oneWalls01.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...all220002a.jpg

I want the wall's more then just all the same sized squares, maybe make it duo tone panels and create a neat line or two in it. I want to add some pillars, but don't think there is room to add one beside the walkway that goes to the back furnace room.

4U2NVME 09-18-10 12:05 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

eugovector wrote: (Post 291467)
Unless I'm seeing wrong 100" is your planned width, and 116"" is your planned diagonal? Just keep it around THX specs and move your rows until you are happy with your layout. I'd shoot for as big a screen as possible using the middle front as the sweet spot,

True, your reading it correct I a shooting for 100" to be my screen width. I have a DIY solution for a AT screen that looks promising.

eugovector 09-18-10 10:24 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

For DIY AT, Seymour AV is highly regarded (and made in Iowa), and Phifer Shearweave 4500. Woven seems to produce less Acoustic Problems with AT than perforated, and doesn't have quite the same possibility for moire problems.

4U2NVME 09-18-10 09:02 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

What would you suggest if I were to do the non AT screen route. I have looked at Seymour and it looks nice, as well if I remember they gave a good plan for making a frame for the screen. I'll look at Shearweave 4500. Seymour suggested putting the material at a 15 degree angle I think to reduce moireing?!?!? The builder is coming over tomorrow, maybe we can find 2 extra feet in the plan somewhere lol... we will see, gotta get that one past the wife :nono:

eugovector 09-19-10 09:28 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Non AT recommendation would be the Black Widow paint mix found here on the Shack. I'd link, but it's hard to do on my mobile device. Maybe someone else can link for me, or just do a search for Black Widow and the official thread should pop up.
Posted via Mobile Device

4U2NVME 09-20-10 12:28 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

eugovector wrote: (Post 292512)
Non AT recommendation would be the Black Widow paint mix found here on the Shack. I'd link, but it's hard to do on my mobile device. Maybe someone else can link for me, or just do a search for Black Widow and the official thread should pop up.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marshall thanks for the reply, I have a hard enough time texting on my phone, nevermind leaving a form post.

I found the thread, its seems simple enough. And he is out of the Auto Air Aluminum Fine lol till October. I'll look around town here to see if I can find it. As long as I ask for that, does it matter who makes it? I don't know if I will paint it directly on my back wall. I think it would look better if I bring if off the back wall and create a drywall screen raised away from the front wall? Is that how most people have done it, or do they just paint the wall and project it on that with a felt or other black border.

I really wanted to light up the speakers behind the AT screen, but I just don't have the room. I will hide them behind panels. Anybody have any luck still highlighting them with light behind black fabric or the like? Lemme know.

-NV

4U2NVME 09-20-10 12:41 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Ok, I kept reading on and I get it, I don't paint the wall, I create a frame and paint some fabric/screen. I am not sure if the Black Widow post will give a suggestion of what type of material to paint, or do you have the option.

I assume this is the primer everybody is talking about. KILZ Oil based right? Humm in Canada I only see the Oil based Kilz and not the 2

Spend enough time and it all becomes clear: TaDA

eugovector 09-20-10 11:38 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Definitely post all BW questions in that thread and the experts will get back to you.

4U2NVME 09-23-10 11:51 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

OK going with the 100 wide BW screen, If I want to make it a 2.4:1 screen and still be able to put on a 16:9 HD picture on it. What height would I go? I am using a Panny 4000 projector that has a constant height setting?

Would I just make the screen 100"/2.4 = 42"high? and then the 16:9 will fit to that? or do I make it

100/(16/9)=56.25 inches high?

eugovector 09-24-10 11:33 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

I'm unfamiliar with how the constant height works on the Panny. Does it use optical zoom to preserve pixel density, or does it simply scale the image.

Mast folks would say, if you can, go with a 2.35 screen to fit the widest of motion pictures. Then, use a masking system, even basic black curtains, to mask for 1.85, 1.77, or 1.3 sources.

bpape 09-24-10 11:38 AM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

The only problem with side masking on an AT screen is that it puts your speakers behind the masking.

That's why personally, I prefer to get the 16:9 screen and then mask top and bottom.

Bryan

4U2NVME 09-24-10 04:41 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

bpape wrote: (Post 293560)
The only problem with side masking on an AT screen is that it puts your speakers behind the masking.

That's why personally, I prefer to get the 16:9 screen and then mask top and bottom.

Bryan

Because I am short on depth for my room, I don't think I can go the AT route =c(. Its a shame because I really wanted to do it that way. 30" takes away to much and sits me to close to the screen and back wall.

bpape 09-24-10 04:58 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

My bad. Thought you were going AT.

That said, you shouldn't let screen size drive seating location. If you need/want AT then put the seats where they need to go acoustically and size the screen accordingly. Setting screen size first is kinda backward IMO.

You have close to 18' to play with. I've done rooms with AT screens that size that had 2 rows of seating and they were in good places and not up against a wall.

Nothing wrong with non-AT certainly. Just making sure you're going through the right decision sequence.

Bryan

Bryan

4U2NVME 09-24-10 06:58 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

bpape wrote: (Post 293623)
My bad. Thought you were going AT.

That said, you shouldn't let screen size drive seating location. If you need/want AT then put the seats where they need to go acoustically and size the screen accordingly. Setting screen size first is kinda backward IMO.

You have close to 18' to play with. I've done rooms with AT screens that size that had 2 rows of seating and they were in good places and not up against a wall.

Nothing wrong with non-AT certainly. Just making sure you're going through the right decision sequence.

Bryan

Ok Bryan,

I feel like a coin lol going between heads and tails. After chatting with you, I'm going back to the AT version. Its really what I wanted anyways, and I'll check out the screen widths to see if I can squeeze a bit more then the 100" width. I'll shoot for a 40deg viewing angle front row and see what it comes out as.

-NV

4U2NVME 09-24-10 07:43 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

I will post up the first live picture of my HT, there is still a bit of work to do, lots os ambient noise going on and the HVAC currently is a nightmare. I'm a few months away from having the build complete, but you can just start to see how it all will work out. :R

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...G_7484Copy.jpg

steely 10-28-10 05:26 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Quote:

4U2NVME wrote: (Post 291396)

Hi Brad

So are you actually currently building your house? If so, you might want to pay attention to the plumbing attached to the wall joining the theatre. It won't take much noise from the toilet flushing/refilling or faucets running to be a distraction - a rule of thumb is to avoid plumbing being attached to a wall of a sensitive space.

So if possible, reorient the bathroom so that plumbing is in another wall, if this is not possible you can do the following: If using copper piping, explain to the plumber that noise is of a concern and ask if they can pay attention to removing burrs left after cutting the piping, a good plumber should be doing this anyway. The second step is to isolate the framework when run through stud walls by mounting the pipe clips on felt or rubber pads. The sound of water flowing through the pipes is amplified by the plasterboard studwork, so avoid hard shorts where possible. The third step is choose a cistern float valve that is low-noise, one brand you can look at is Torbeck.

-Andrew

4U2NVME 10-28-10 11:26 PM

Re: Phase 1 -- Planning
 

Thanks Steely! I have talked with the builder and have asked him to route all drain pipes etc away from the ceiling of the HT. The HT does back onto the mechanical room. I hope it does not become to big of an issue. I can ask that all plumbing fixtures etc be located on the other side of the Mechanical room.

Brad.


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