Adding sub to "full range"... - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:15 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

The 80Hz crossover setting is the standard set by THX. Although this may seem high it is the best compromise as a good sub will easily handle the rest. I understand your concern for letting the mains do what they can do but this puts more strain on the receivers amp/power supply section and this in turn limits the maximum output the receiver can do for the surrounds.
The mains I have play down to 32Hz and in pure two channel mode they sound great but for movies I dont want that. Remember that even with a crossover setting of 80Hz this does not mean the frequencies below that dont get through it just means that at 80hz the curve will then fall off so blow 50hz there is no output. Does your receiver not have an independent eq for the mains? You could then just roll off the frequencies below 30hz.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #22 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:16 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

Do you have the option on your receiver to send the sub output to main speakers and sub at the same time???? ... my Yamaha RXV 2700 has that option, I'm using JBL Stadiums for the main front, they go down to 35Hz; so what I did is to set them to small (according to manual, it doesn't matter if they're set to small or large when using for sub output), crossover to 80HZ and sub output send to Both (front speakers and Sub)
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post #23 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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hddummy wrote: View Post
I've just always followed that rule and I don't think any guidelines would convince me otherwise. If recommendations don't agree then I'll bite my lip about it. I'm sure the crossover slopes built into the AVR also have an influence on how close to the speaker roll-off you can crossover. That is one of the nice things about external active crossovers...you have complete control over these sort of things.
That of course raises a few questions as well...
How much margin is "adequate" to ensure the AVR doesn't hit the slope on the speakers... ?
I can verify by scans, but do speakers (not talking about low end stuff here) typically roll off where the mfrs specify it, or do they give a little "extra"?
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post #24 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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conchyjoe7 wrote: View Post
Why not set up your system for no sub at all during music playback? If your mains as you say can go below 40hz, it's unlikely a sub will help much depending on how loud you listen, the type of music you listen to (hip hop/rap will require a sub) and the power of your AVR. I listen to music in stereo (most of the time) with my mains set to large and my subs off. When viewing movies, I go ahead and cut in the subs (I have 2) which are crossed over at 80hz (I use the recommended THX crossover point despite the fact that my mains are easily usable to ~24hz). In most cases, IMHO your speakers will handle 90% of all music no problem, but as others have said; you should try it both ways as simply by crossing over at 60hz or 80hz will take a huge drain off of your AVRs output as well as the bass drivers of your speakers and in all likelihood make your system sound a lot more "open", "detailed" and "smoother".
Just my 2 cents worth...hope it helps!
Cheers,
Konky.
Only real reason here is it's not as convenient to change in the AVR as perhaps some, so I'd rather to pick one setup to use for both modes, especially for the WAF... also, even thought I don't normally listen to the hip hop and rap, I want to be able to perform there when necessary...
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post #25 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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atledreier wrote: View Post
The thing is, and like I said before, a properly set up sub will outperform your mains. A properly set up sub will have EQ and freedom of location that you don't have with your mains. The response from a properly EQ'ed and placed sub will be smoother and have more headroom than your mains. Music or movies, there is no fundamental difference. It's all sound. Movies often put more of an emphasis on extension, where music demand more agility and precision. This is a broad generalization though. 50% of a movie soundtrack is music.*

*Non-scientific guesstimate
THX generally quotes that 70% of a movie soundtrack is dialog...
I'm of the opinion that there IS a difference between movie and music, the sound is different... yes, a perfect system in a perfect room will sound superb for both, but since that isn't an option, there are tradeoffs... in music, I much prefer the sound of 2 good full range speakers to 2 monitors backed by a sub with an 80Hz crossover... in movies, as long as it's not above 80Hz, I believe the exact crossover point to be less of an issue... in music, the more extension you can get out of the stereo pair the better, assuming of course, you don't sacrifice flatness, and have the ability to properly place and aim them...
Lastly, in some regards the full range allows more placement options than the single sub, to the extent that they're two separate sources, although there can be phase issues, and they have to be placed somewhere that provides adequate imaging, careful placement of 2 sources can help combat modes better than 1 source.
Of course, if you sacrifice response, all bets are off...
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post #26 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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Mike Cason wrote: View Post
Well, I don't have an arguement with the Dolby link because I'm certainly not a pro. I'm just a novice builder but have built a system that everyone who has listened to it says it's the finest sounding they have ever heard, bar none. I'm just providing you with the settings that I've found to give me the most, and best, sound I can get with my system. I usually listen to music and some concerts in two channel only because the mains are so good.

My Rotel has the sub output and that's the one I use. I am to assume that is the LFE rca jack as well.
Like I said, I was getting semantic, and I don't know the Rotel, but most amps will have a sub output, but not an LFE output... they're different.

Quote:
As far as bass guitar reproduction,
good luck with the Reckhorn... as for bass guitar, and the other instruments, the question was really what frequencies the lowest fundamentals run down to...
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post #27 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 04:59 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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tonyvdb wrote: View Post
The 80Hz crossover setting is the standard set by THX. Although this may seem high it is the best compromise as a good sub will easily handle the rest. I understand your concern for letting the mains do what they can do but this puts more strain on the receivers amp/power supply section and this in turn limits the maximum output the receiver can do for the surrounds.
The mains I have play down to 32Hz and in pure two channel mode they sound great but for movies I dont want that. Remember that even with a crossover setting of 80Hz this does not mean the frequencies below that dont get through it just means that at 80hz the curve will then fall off so blow 50hz there is no output. Does your receiver not have an independent eq for the mains? You could then just roll off the frequencies below 30hz.
I've played with the 80hz setting and it affects the sound quality of my mains. I've paralleled two Lambda TD12s drivers in each main, as well as the Scan Speaks I have for my mids. The mains aren't as detailed with the higher setting, so I'm very happy with the 60hz. The two Lambdas in parallel can reproduce the 60 to 80hz much better than the sub. As far as what THX recommends, it is just that, a recommendation. The end user tweaks their system for their optimal performance and pleasure.

I don't have a crossover adjustment for the mains.

My Rotel processor/amp is a very high current amplifier and can easily power my mains, center, and two surrounds. I have a separate amplifier for my two center backs.

This is not to be taken as an arguement, but rather a discussion. That's why we have our forums to share information with each other.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Cason; 03-26-08 at 05:09 PM.
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post #28 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 05:11 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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Mike Cason wrote: View Post
This is not to be taken as an arguement, but rather a discussion. That's why we have our forums to share information with each other.

Mike
Sorry Mike, no argument was intended here I was just stating what I know and what usually works.
At this moment I have my mains set for Full with no crossover as my sub is a little week and I have a separate amp driving them but this will change once I get my SVS PB13 Ultra.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #29 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 05:21 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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atledreier wrote: View Post
I have very capable fronts. They can easily handle 40Hz at reference, and lower down if I don't go mental. Still, they sound so much sweeter when I cross them over at 80Hz. A properly set up subwoofer will "always" outperform a fullrange speaker down low. You are not using your system to it's full potential if you DON'T cross them over at 80Hz.
You are wrong plain and simple, if your system sounds better crossed over at 80HZ maybe that works for you but in my system it isnt the case, with my power reserves, speakers that go down to 16Hz.... bi-amps with outboard active crossover, 80Hz isnt the way to go. What works in your system does not become an absolute rule.
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post #30 of 48 Old 03-26-08, 05:25 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
Sorry Mike, no argument was intended here I was just stating what I know and what usually works.
At this moment I have my mains set for Full with no crossover as my sub is a little week and I have a separate amp driving them but this will change once I get my SVS PB13 Ultra.
I understand your point and is well taken.

You will love your SVS subs. I've heard a lot of good things about them..

I broke all the rules by putting two RLP 15s in a 5 cu ft box with 4 passive radiators each, but the results are fantastic. I have a lot of rebuilds, (total of 5 for the sub alone) starting 3 or 4 years ago to achieve the sound I am most happy with.....we call this stuff DIY and we are supposed to enjoy our projects.

BTW....The Lambda line of woofers and subwoofers were custom designed, machined, and built in Florida and as far as I could tell, was one of the highest sought after driver in the world. Nick didn't charge enough for them and eventually sold out. I was negotiating purchasing the business and inventory from him but am lacking in the audio technical department to make a success with their continued production.
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