Adding sub to "full range"... - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 01:52 AM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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superchad wrote: View Post
You are wrong plain and simple, if your system sounds better crossed over at 80HZ maybe that works for you but in my system it isnt the case, with my power reserves, speakers that go down to 16Hz.... bi-amps with outboard active crossover, 80Hz isnt the way to go. What works in your system does not become an absolute rule.
This is exactly why I put the 'always' in quotes. Not many have mains that will play comfortably in the lower ranges. I have no signs of strain when playing low stuff on them, they have no problem handling music on their own, but even so they are sweeter and cleaner up high with the lower end crossed off. I would think that about most systems really, regardless of quality. I have good headroom, a bi-amped setup and not a very big room to fill.


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post #32 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 02:12 AM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

sorry I didnt see quotes but all the same I think in general you are correct but for those of us with true full range and various other equipment that is not really the norm the 80hz rule doesnt apply. I didnt want to start a debate just adding that there are almost always exceptions to even the most universally believed rules of thumb, if my goal wasnt a music first system I believe I would probably be firmly in the 80hz camp with most others......cheers
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post #33 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 04:32 AM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

Wasn't that 80hz cross over thing brought out/setup by THX anyway?

IMO, it really has no basis when it comes to music systems unless your system can not handle frequencies below that with authority. Speakers should be set up as dictated by the capabilities of each speaker or system and the way each individual likes, as that is all that really matters.
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post #34 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 05:35 AM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

This one has taken on a mind of it's own. Let's summarize. 80Hz crossover is a good rule of thumb for "movie centric" systems but is still largely determined by personal taste and system capability. If you don't have the time or necessary resources to test your system out, set it and forget it. If you want to play around with different frequencies...by all means. For "music centric systems", many prefer to leave full range speakers handle the bulk of the low end material but will probably need to crossover to a sub and some level. Again...do some testing.

Now...as for glaufman's original question... Have we sufficiently turned you around enough so that you have no idea where the donkey's tail needs to go?
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post #35 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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tonyvdb wrote: View Post
The 80Hz crossover setting is the standard set by THX. Although this may seem high it is the best compromise as a good sub will easily handle the rest.
Although I believe in THX, this is one area where I differ from their opinion... I prefer a lower crossover...

Quote:
I understand your concern for letting the mains do what they can do but this puts more strain on the receivers amp/power supply section and this in turn limits the maximum output the receiver can do for the surrounds.
I don't believe my receiver is being strained, and I certainly have plenty of output room for the surrounds...

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Does your receiver not have an independent eq for the mains? You could then just roll off the frequencies below 30hz.
It does, but the characteristic is limited to the point where I don't think this is practical... it's only 3 band, the bass and treble can only adjust levels and cutoffs, (high for the bass, low for the treble) and level and center for the mid, without an adjustment for Q or BW...
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post #36 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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salvasol wrote: View Post
Do you have the option on your receiver to send the sub output to main speakers and sub at the same time???? ... my Yamaha RXV 2700 has that option, I'm using JBL Stadiums for the main front, they go down to 35Hz; so what I did is to set them to small (according to manual, it doesn't matter if they're set to small or large when using for sub output), crossover to 80HZ and sub output send to Both (front speakers and Sub)
I don't think I understand... if the mains are set to 80Hz, shouldn't anything below that be sent only to the sub? You can set the mains to 80 and still get the sub output sent to the mains? that doesn't seem to make sense...
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post #37 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 08:41 AM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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I don't think I understand... if the mains are set to 80Hz, shouldn't anything below that be sent only to the sub? You can set the mains to 80 and still get the sub output sent to the mains? that doesn't seem to make sense...
That does seem somewhat counter intuitive, but I think what happens is that both the sub and mains get material below the crossover and LFE. In other words, the mains get full spectrum and LFE. The sub gets low frequency material from the mains and LFE. You'd better have some serious capability on the mains to handle that.
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post #38 of 48 Old 03-27-08, 07:08 PM
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

I run full plus sub in my Rotel, it is useful when you have full range fronts for extra depth in the presentaion but center and all surrounds follow what ever cross over you set. If my speakers couldnt handle bas as low as they do (Iam down -10db at 16Hz) I wouldnt use this feature as it could be a woofer killer.
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post #39 of 48 Old 03-28-08, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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hddummy wrote: View Post
Now...as for glaufman's original question... Have we sufficiently turned you around enough so that you have no idea where the donkey's tail needs to go?
Actually, I think I have a direection as to how I'll probably go, at least to start, which'll be to use the 60Hz crossover the rcvr allows, and see how it sounds, since noone argued (at least not that I've read yet) with the assertion of staying away from the speaker's cutoff in any case... I'd still like to hear opinions on that, and answers to some of the questions that raised in my mind, basically...
How much room is adequate to keep the crossover above the mains' cutoff?
The other questions it raised, such as is the receiver supposed to do this itself, I can answer empirically, once the wife goes away for a few days...

The only question left really will be whether I make sure to get a sub with high level in/outs, so I can eventually use its crossover to power the mains in case I decide I need ot listen to that to see if it's better, and what people think, if the crossover in these subs has characteristics sufficiently flat etc to do this effectively, or if it's a gimmick to stay away from...
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post #40 of 48 Old 03-28-08, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Adding sub to "full range"...

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hddummy wrote: View Post
That does seem somewhat counter intuitive, but I think what happens is that both the sub and mains get material below the crossover and LFE. In other words, the mains get full spectrum and LFE. The sub gets low frequency material from the mains and LFE. You'd better have some serious capability on the mains to handle that.
I think that depends on how the receiver is designed, and how you've set it up...
Theoretically, the receiver is under no obligation to send LFE to the sub... if you tell the receiver your mains are "large," that implies full range, in which case it can very well send the entire LFE to the mains and nothing to the sub... (according to Dolby) ... if all the sats are set to small with a crossover, then the rcvr should transistion via opposing rolloffs from sats to sub at that rolloff... not that the mains shouldn't get anything below that freq, they have to in order to make the transition smooth, but the signal they're given should rolloff... another question becomes at what slop do they rolloff? 1st order, 2nd order, etc... (6 db, 12 db per octave, 20, 40 db per decade?) I plan to run some tests on my AVR to see what it actually does... I'll post the results if anyone's interested, but due to other projects it may be a while before I get around to it...
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